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Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    In Matt 10:28 God says that HE is the one who destroys BOTH body and soul in fiery hell.

    DHK and some others have pointed out that this destruction takes place as a result of the "everlasting fire" judgment that God speaks of in Matt 25:41 "prepared for the devil and his angels".

    In Rev 20 we see that literally taking place in the literal lake of fire after the literal 1000 years. There is where we see God's eternal fire (fire and brimstone) "prepared and ready" to receive the devil and his angels since we are told that he is then and there cast alive in to the lake of fire.

    But some argue that this kind of destruction of BOTH BODY AND SOUL - when done by "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41) is more like the non-consuming fire of the burning bush experience of Mosas - where the literal plant is NOT destroyed NOT consumed but still seen to be on fire in some way.

    However God says in Jude 7 and 2Peter 2:6-7 that "Everalsting fire" DOES destroy in a way that "reduces to ASHES". Neither MAtt 10:28 NOR Jude 7 says "will be seen to be on fire but no actually destroyed" as in the case of the burning bush that "was NOT consumed". (in fact NEVER does God use the burning bush as an example of the destruction by everlasting fire - no not even once!)

    Taking God's Word over man-made tradition we might easily conclude that the body raised for that post-millennium destruction is not an "immortal body". (Indeed the ONLY ones said to get an immortal body in scripture are those in 1Cor 15 - the saints - at the first resurrection).

    Since there is no text in all of scripture saying "you have an immortal soul" but rather Ezek 18:4 says "the soul that sins shall die" and Matt 10:28 says BOTH body AND SOUL are destroyed in fiery hell - we can easily see that the body that is destroyed in that fire - is destroyed along with the soul.

    But admittedly some man-made traditions would not allow for that.

    The challenge here is to suppose for a second that the bible really is true as it speaks to the points listed here - what benefit is there to accepting it as it reads in this case - and also what problems does that create?

    Are they just problems for man-made traditions or are they in fact real Bible "problems" when taking these texts as literally true and paying attention to each inconvenient detail.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007
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  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    I have one quick question before I get too involved in an answer. Is the body really destroyed in hell? I always thought that it is destryed 'to ashes' in this present world by one means or another.
     
    #2 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 12, 2007
  3. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Well, I asked this question elsewhere, but it's applicable here:

    What is hell?
     
    #3 Hope of Glory, Apr 12, 2007
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob,
    Before such a discussion is entered upon, I believe we need to get one thing straight. What does 2Pet.2:6 have to do with this subject? The answer is absolutely nothing! I explained this on page 31 on the previous thread in my answer to Andre. You have a habit of taking Scripture out of its context and then tying them to other Scriptures which are speaking of something entirely different. So let's start on the right foot this time and eliminate those passages which have no bearing on the subject.

    2Pet.2:6 speaks of the physical burning of Sodom and Gomorroh and the burning of those cities and its inhabitants to ashes, and nothing more. It relates it as an historical event, the very event that happened in Genesis 19. It doesn't say one thing about the eternal punishment of the souls or spirits of these men. You must go to other Scriptures to get that doctrine. It is not in 2Pet.2:6, so leave that Scripture out of this discussion.
    2Pet.2:6 is simply stating the facts just like the narrative of the flood. Lot was delivered from the destruction of those cities just as Noah and his family were delivered from the destruction of world and all the inhabitants thereof. When relating that story we don't normally speak of the souls and spirits of the inhabitants of those drowned in the flood. Neither is it speakng of it in 2Pet.2:6. In fact if you read on in the next three verses, you find that it is speaking of the deliverance of "just Lot" from that destruction, just as Noah was delivered from the Flood. The context is speaking of deliverance, not eternal punishment. It is relating a historical event that happened back in the days of Abraham in Genesis 19. That reference has nothing to do with this discussion. You continually tie it in with Jude 7 to try and make your argument, but it doesn't. It only demonstrates your inability to rightly divide the Word of truth.
     
    #4 DHK, Apr 12, 2007
  5. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza New Member

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    Well, if that's what it says, then we must apply the same priniple we do to the ordination of women and say we aren't allowed to argue about it at all. We must accept it whole, unexamined, and at face value.
     
    #5 tragic_pizza, Apr 12, 2007
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The topic is eternal punishment in hell and annihilation of the wicked. Are you insinuating that ordained women will spend an eternity in hell or will be annihilated instead? What is your point? I just spent an entire post explaining why we should keep things in their context. Are you trying to derail this thread, or what?
     
    #6 DHK, Apr 12, 2007
  7. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I for one believe that DHK has set forth a valid point. Twist as they may, 2Pet 2:6 does not, as DHK states, invalidate in any way the eternal nature of the punishment of sinners. BR and others are trying to make that verse walk on all four legs to prove their unsupported presuppositions concerning the annihilation of the wicked.
     
    #7 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 12, 2007
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is a bodily resurrection of the wicked according to Rev 20 at the end of the 1000 years. At that time they along with the devil are thrown "alive" into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    So "yes" God is being 100% accurate when He says that BOTH body AND soul are tossed into that 2nd death lake of fire and "destroyed".

    It is interesting that God states clearly in Matt 10:28 that the body IS destroyed - killed in this life - and He then points to that future bodily resurrection of the wicked and points out that at the 2nd death God will "destroy BOTH body AND soul" in fiery hell - that is prepared for the devil and his angels.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #8 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    When Christ speaks of it in Matt 10 it is that same fiery judgment mentioned in Matt 25:41 "prepared for the devil and his angels".

    You then SEE exactly when and where the Devil and his angels are subjected to that fiery judgment - in Rev 20. We see that it is not until the end of the 1000 years that they are tossed alive into that "2nd death". It is then also that the wicked dead are bodily raised and they too are tossed alive into that fire and brimstone second death - lake of fire.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #9 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 10:28 proves that BOTH body AND soul are "destroyed" in fiery hell.

    Matt 25:41 proves that this is the punishment of "everlasting fire" and that it is the VERY ONE prepared in Rev 20 at the end of the 1000 years "for the devil and his angels".

    Jude 7 proves that we have already SEEN valid examples of "destruction by EVERLASTING FIRE" for the VERY TERM is used there!

    2Peter 2 proves that historically that "Destruction" was so complete that it "reduced them to ashes".

    Indeed they are “exhibited” still today as real examples of the complete and devastating destruction that IS the destruction of “everlasting fire”.

    2Peter 2
    6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
    7 and if     He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men

    Jude
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah     and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire

    Notice that just when the man-made tradition of "eternal torture" wants us to believe that 2Peter 2 DOES NOT refer to the destruction of the wicked by reducing them to ashes in the everlasting fire - the same that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah - 2Peter 2 says IT IS talking about the destruction of the wicked at the end of time.
    .

    2Peter 2
    9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
    10 and especially     those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires     and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
    11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
    12     But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed


    (As I have already pointed out regarding these texts - just delete the inconvenient sections in blue - and you can easily get to the man-made traditions so popular today that say "destroy" in these texts is not really destroying the wicked AND their cities TOGETHER in that same everlasting fire)

    Having said that we STILL know that even the wicked of Sodom and Gomorrah who ALREADY experience total destruction by everlasting fire according to 2Peter 2:6-7 and Jude 7 - will be bodily raised in Rev 20 at the end of the 1000 years and once again subjected to that everlasting fire -- only this time to suffer not merely the FIRST death (where body is destroyed but not soul) - but the SECOND DEATH where "BOTH body AND soul" are destroyed in torment that fully pays the debt owed for all the sins of each sinner who burns in hell.


    In Christ,

    bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007
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  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Here is a great verse to ignore when trying to argue against the content and context of 2Peter 2 claiming that it is NOT given with reference to the FUTURE judgment and punishment of the wicked.

    2Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

    Jude 7 makes the point this way -- are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire


    But of course - ALL readers already saw that in the quote above.

    Simply dismissing these texts as poor examples given by God of what HE MEANS when He references that FUTURE event with everlasting fire punishing the wicked - is totally bogus. That kind of argument fails before it gets started when the reader simply observes the inconvenient facts in the quotes above.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #11 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007
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  12. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    So, hell is the lake of fire?
     
    #12 Hope of Glory, Apr 12, 2007
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    yes -

    It is the 2nd death "everlasting prepared for the devil and his angels". It is only in Rev 20 that we see the devil and his angels tossed into fire and brimstone.

    Some translations confuse the issue by translating Hades (the grave) as hell.

    For example in Acts 2 "you will not abandon my soul to hades" - the grave.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: And the plot thickens. So now we have God reducing men to ashes that have not been annihilated the first time: proof, the bodily resurrection later on. I can only conclude that reducing one to ashes in no wise means or implies annihilation as you would have us to believe. God indeed can reduce to ashes and destroy the wicked without annihilation. Whatever ‘destroying’ means in reference to the body and soul, is obviously outside of the pale of your presupposition of annihilation or an end to eteranl punishment. If the body and soul ceases to exist, no punishment can be eternal.

    Again, there is absolutely no Scriptural evidence that the body and soul will realize a cessation of punishment in hell inspite of being destroyed by God, as you, via your own presuppositions, must believe is the case. Punishment has an object, and eternity is the Scriptural duration for that object to realize that punishment.
     
    #14 Heavenly Pilgrim, Apr 12, 2007
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No one is discounting Jude 7. It does refer to a future event. Here is what Peter says:

    2 Peter 2:6-8 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

    This, Bob, is a past event. You will find it described in detail in Genesis 19. There is nothing future in these verses. They don't refer to a coming judgement. Peter will deal with that later on, but he doesn't here. It is dishonest for you to use this passage in connection with Jude 7. The connectioin is not there.
    The chapter is speaking of false teachers, their doctrine, their practices, their sin, and the consequences thereof. Look at verse one:

    2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

    But false prophets don't listen to Biblical doctrine. They are not open to teaching. Peter describes their teaching as damnable heresies under which annihiliation of the wicked would fall. They are stuck on their own doctrine no matter what evidence is presented to them. So in the end, Peter tells us:

    2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
     
    #15 DHK, Apr 12, 2007
  16. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Umm... can you show me a reference where the lake of fire is referred to as "hell"?
     
    #16 Hope of Glory, Apr 12, 2007
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Hell, a place of torment and fire will be cast into the Lake of fire, also a place of torment and fire.
    If I put a spoonful of water into a glass of water what becomes of the water that was in the spoon? It isn't destroyed, but only assimilated by the water in the glass. The greater amount of water assimiltates the smaller amount, but all the water is still there. No water is lost.

    When Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, it will still be there. The flames will not be extinguished. It will be assimilated by the Lake of Fire. Thus it is not improper to talk of the everlasting fires of Hell. As they will continue to burn in the Lake of Fire they will indeed be everlasting. The one is assimilated by the other, and nothing is ever lost.
     
    #17 DHK, Apr 12, 2007
  18. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    In Revelation 20:14, the word is "hades". It's the grave.

    Even so, "hell" and the "lake of fire" are not synonymous.

    You can go swimming in a pool. If that pool gets dumped into the ocean, you can no longer go swimming in that pool.
     
    #18 Hope of Glory, Apr 13, 2007
  19. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    If the devil and his angels are going to annihilated-- will cease to exist-- upon physical destruction in the lake of fire, what is it they so fear when they see Jesus coming to Gadara, for example, and ajuring him to not torment them "before the time?" Big deal. I have it all planned if I am ever trapped in a burning room with no escape-- deliberately intake a breath from just above the flame; it will immediately give a "hot lung" and instant death. That's not a great deal of "torment" to face if you know that fact. Little wonder, then, the devil and his cronies didn't think the price was all that high to snub God and get these silly human beings to do the same. Just a couple of seconds of extreme torture and then no existence to know it. With most other cults, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, it's no torment at all-- simply ceasing to exist. So I tell them (sometimes) that even if what they are saying about this is true, it's nothing to me because I would never know I was wrong.

    But, if scripture is true and the devil and his angels and those who never turn to God in faith are "tormented day and night forever and ever," that would explain the demon's fear on seeing Jesus and being so concerned about "the time." That will give those who currently call us "fundies" and "fools" plenty of time to remember. And there is no fuel that lasts forever, so looking at this from worldly view an "eternal fire" is an impossibility anyway; so I won't look at it from that type of view.

    Finally, does "destroy" inherantly inevitably mean "completely do away with" such that the person(s) in question is no longer an entity? Not always. Example: Paul's message to the magician in Acts 13, in which he said the land was divided unto the people as an inheritance after God had destroyed 7 nations in Canaan. It is not true that among these 7 nations there were absolutely none left, definitely not before any of the land was doled out. In fact, Canaanites are still mentioned after the return from Babylon in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. So destroy does not have to mean annihilation or absolute cessation.
     
    #19 Alcott, Apr 13, 2007
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  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Note that in Matt 10 when Christ contrasts the first death with the second death the same concept of Kill and “Destroy” that he applied in the real world (first death) really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning regarding the 2nd death. .(In Matt 25:41 we are told that the everlasting fire of the 2nd death is “prepared for the devil and his angels” – and we see that very thing happening in Rev 20 where the devil is cast alive into eternal fire).

    Matt 10
    28 ""Do not fear [b]those     who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.[/b]

    Christ argues that we should not fear first death scenarios – but rather second death. Do now fear what wicked men plan to do regarding the first death – and in fact DO – to the saints. “Kill the body” since in those things they are not able to “kill” the soul. Rather fear what God plans to do – and in fact WILL do in the fiery hell to come – to “destroy BOTH body AND soul” IN fiery hell -- doing that which sinful men CAN NOT do to their fellow man. He does not merely say – “fear Him who could choose to destroy BOTH body and soul if he should ever be inclined to do such a thing” – rather He states it in the affirmative saying WHERE and when he will do it “IN fiery hell”

    Jude
    7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

    2 Peter 2:6
    and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

    They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God. Just as God said that “BOTH body AND soul are DESTROYED” in fiery hell Matt 10:28 – so we see that the everlasting fire – the eternal fire of Jude “destroyed” the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Don’t miss the fact that eternal fire is explicitly said to have already fallen on earth. We have a clear and literal example of eternal fire in history according to the Word of God.

    This is the same “everlasting fire” that we see Christ speaking of in Matt 25
    Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    But the man-made traditions of some Christian groups today would this Bible truth and spin it very far from where we find it in scripture.


    DHK provides for us – a perfect example “by contrast” to what is meant by everlasting fire and eternal fire in the modern man-made traditions of some Christian groups.

    Notice that God’s Word tells us that the burning bush in Moses' day was neither “consumed” nor “destroyed”.

    Ex 3
    1Now Moses was pasturing the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian; and he led the flock to the west side of the wilderness and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
    2The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush; and he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, yet the bush was not consumed.
    3So Moses said, "I must turn aside now and see this marvelous sight, why the bush is not burned up."
     
    #20 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2007
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