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Matt 10:28 does God really "destroy BOTH" Body AND soul in fiery hell??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Apr 12, 2007.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It depends on the author - if you read Matthew you see "Gehenna" but not "the lake of fire".

    If you read John you see "Fire" and "Fire and Brimstone" and "second Death" and "lake of fire" but not Gehenna.

    They are all using different terms to talk about the same thing.

    I now address your question in detail as promised.

    Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

    Fiery Hell = Eternal Fire
    = Fire and Brimstone
    = Second Death (lake of fire)

    Here they are in detail:


    Fiery Hell = is in fact “eternal fire” = Everlasting fire



    Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”



    Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”[/b]. So [b]eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone[/b] and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

    The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .


     
    #41 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2007
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  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I found some quotes by Luther on soul sleep - Enjoy!


    Salomon judgeth that the dead are a sleepe, and feele nothing at all. For the dead lye there accompting neyther dayes nor yeares, but when they are awaked, they shall seeme to haue slept scarce one minute." - An Exposition of Salomon's Booke, called Ecclesiastes or the Preacher, 1573, folio 151v.
    "But we Christians, who have been redeemed from all this through the precious blood of God's Son, should train and accustom ourselves in faith to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong sweet sleep; to consider the coffin as nothing other than our Lord Jesus' bosom or Paradise, the grave as nothing other than a soft couch of ease or rest. As verily, before God, it truely is just this; for he testifies, John 11:11: Lazarus, our friend sleeps; Matthew 9:24: The maiden is not dead, she sleeps. Thus too, St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, removes from sight all hateful aspects of death as related to our mortal body and brings forward nothing but charming and joyful aspects of the promised life. He says there [vv.42ff]: It is sown in corruption and will rise in incorruption; it is sown in dishonour (that is, a hateful, shameful form) and will rise in glory; it is sown in weakness and will rise in strength; it is sown in natural body and will rise a spiritual body."- Christian Song Latin and German, for Use at Funerals," 1542, Works of Luther (1932), vol. 6, pp.287,288 ​
    "Thus after death the soul goes to its bedchamber and to its peace, and while it is sleeping it does not realise its sleep, and God preserves indeed the awakening soul. God is able to awake Elijah, Moses, and others, and so control them, so that they will live. But how can that be ? That we do not know; we satisfy ourselves with the example of bodily sleep, and with what God says: it is a sleep, as rest, and a peace. He who sleeps naturally knows nothing of that which happens in his neighbor's house; and nevertheless he still is living, even though, contrary to the nature of life, he is unconscious in his sleep. Exactly the same will happen also in that life, but in another and a better way." -"Auslegung des ersten Buches Mose," in Schriften, vol.1, cols. 1759, 1760 ​
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It contradicts 1Thes.5:23.
    If you had read my previous post you would know that I already refuted your position.
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Man is Mortal

    Ps 143
    3Do not trust in princes,
    In mortal man
    , in whom there is no salvation.
    4His
    spirit departs
    , he returns to the earth;
    In that very day
    his thoughts perish
    .


    1 Cor 15
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,[/b]
    52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and
    the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed
    .
    53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable,
    and this mortal must put on immortality
    .
    54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and
    this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is an "interesting" response given that my position above ACCEPTS the text as it is - whereas you keep wanting to add "but annhilate is more than just reducing them to ashes" as if you had solved some kind of problem in taking that rabbit trail.

    The point remains. Having "destruction" that "destroys by reducing them to ashes" completely fullfills the level of "destroy" that my argument requires.

    Period.



    If I may interrupt... please make a point sir.

    Carry your argument forward. Respond to the devastating case that we see in scripture in favor of "destruction of BOTH body and soul" were destruction is something that "reduces to ashes".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1Thess 5 23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    This is not the "body sharing" that some would have us believe it is. ONE PERSON (soul) is comprised of Body and Spirit making up the SOUL. It is not 3 persons, not even TWO persons. It is only ONE.

    That "person's" thoughts "cease" at death.

    The spirit goes back to God who gave it.

    the body returns to dust.

    The "person" sleeps the sleep of the first death as we are told in 1thess 4 and John 11 and 1Cor 15.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    An unusual interpretation Bob, but that is not what the verse says.
     
  8. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Define for the list your terms. What is the ‘spirit of man’ that departs?
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The spirit is that part of the "person" that is responsible for thought for being for "personality" worship to God etc. The spirit can only function when joined to the body - so the person is "animated" when spirit is joined to body. the "person" is in a first-death dormant state when they are separated. This is why Christ can affirm in Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #49 BobRyan, Apr 13, 2007
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  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

    Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death
    Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
    18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
    Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

    Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.
    Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
    19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

    Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God
    Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

    Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity
    Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
    3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
    4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
    Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity
     
  11. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Can you establish these philosophical views from Scripture or reason, or are we to just accept it as fact just because BR says so?
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Your view makes man no more or no better than an animal. It is as if you believe in evolution. Are we all animals? If not what is the difference?
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The way I do it is by paying attenton to the details in the list of things that the PERSON can NOT do in the dead-dormant-sleep state.

    Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

    Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death
    Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
    18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
    Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

    Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.
    Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
    19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

    Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God
    Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

    Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity
    Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
    3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
    4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
    5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
    Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

    Ps 143
    Ps 143
    3Do not trust in princes,
    In mortal man
    , in whom there is no salvation.
    4His
    spirit departs
    , he returns to the earth;
    In that very day
    his thoughts perish.


    The other option is to simply ignore these texts.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Humans re-animate at the resurrection - animals are not raised from the dead.

    The spirit of ALL humans (not just good ones) goes "back to God who gave it" at death. (Eccl 12)

    The spirit of animals simply goes into the earh (Eccl 3)

    Solomon makes this point in Ecclesiasties
     
  15. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    What does it mean to perish?

    Who are the righteous?

    Who are the ungodly?
     
  16. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: This verse speaks not of an individual perishing, but of the ‘way’ of the ungodly perishing.



    HP: “He that doeth righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous.”



    HP: Those that know not God, that have not fulfilled the conditions of salvation that God said we must fulfill in order to be saved, and those that do not do the works of God.
     
  17. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    OK, so we agree that they are all referring to some sort of penalty, right?

    But, are we certain that they're referring to the same penalty?

    You and I see the gehenna warnings being given to saved individuals, we just disagree on the eventual outcome; this is something that saved individuals need to be concerned with.

    Do saved people have to worry about the lake of fire, though?

    Let's look at Matthew 25:31-46 in some general terms. This is one passage that some have used with me in the past to show that you could become unsaved.

    First of all, he's separating the sheep from the goats. Most people see this as saved vs unsaved. I was taught this most of my life. However, we're told in Numbers 18:17, "But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD. "

    We are given types and pictures in the OT, and goats are a clean animal. I don't think the Lord is going to use a clean animal to represent someone who's headed for the lake of fire any more than he uses a virgin to picture an unsaved person.

    The entire passage is talking about works, works, and more works.

    Then, we get down to verse 41, and he tells those who didn't have the good works some stuff. He callse them "cursed" and tells them to depart into this fire. This fire is aionian fire. It's limited duration. (This looks good to the theology that you hold to, but to those who believe in unlimited punishment and/or OSAS, it presents a dilemma.)

    "Aionios" is an adjective from the noun "aion" which means "age". It's a period of limited duration, and cannot mean "forever". The period of limitation is not specified by the word itself, although some societies that used Latin in the past made it mean 120 years. In the Greek, it simply means a period of limited duration, without a reference to the specific beginning or ending. (It's 1,000 years in this case, but I don't want to get into that here; this is already long enough.) [As an added aside: If you look at the etymological history of the word "eternal" in English, it did not mean forever until the late 1700's or so, and today, it technically means without beginning or ending. The expression for "forever" is used in several places, and the word for "eternal" as we would view it today (without beginning or ending or, technically, existing outside of time, is used only twice in the NT.]

    This is where the picture that someone used (I can't remember who right off hand) comes into play. This fire is a little bit, and when it is added to the lake 1000 years later, who's going to notice?

    Amen, brother! Not only is he the enemy of Christians, I think that's his primary objective. I know that most people present him as weak and powerless against us, and that he's just trying to hold onto what he has (the unsaved), but I think the Scriptures plainly show that he wants to bring us down.

    I know that you an I disagree on what he wants to bring us down to, but I just praise God that you see that we (Christians) are his primary focus here on this earth! If only more Christians would see that in Scriptures, that would be one less thing to argue about.

    Satan is the god of this world, and he will be until Jesus takes over. This is stated explicitly (not simply implied) in Scriptures, yet when you preach that, people will stand up and shout you down!

    Yes we do! But, what is the time frame, particularly in relation to other events?

    This is another point that I find ironic. You and I, on opposite sides of the OSAS doctrine, can both see that this is talking about works.

    So many cannot.

    Or, they simply try to claim that backloading works onto it isn't really works. ("Well, if you're really and truly saved, then you will/won't do this or that", is a very popular, but very unbiblical teaching today.)

    Now here is where you're making an assumption.

    Matthew is warning about fire, John is warning about fire, and you equate them. However, our works are going to be tried by fire. Is that the same thing?

    Also, if you hold that the lake of fire is literal (which I do), gehenna is not; it's figurative. Although the image was a real place at one time, it no longer exists. You cannot find it.

    I think Scriptures support that the lake of fire is a literal future for unsaved people. I think the gehenna warnings are real, but the punishment is figurative, and it's given to saved people.

    Well, I agree that the first death is insignificant.

    However, I think Scriptures show that the second death is much more than simply the lake of fire, and the second death is only a problem for
     
  18. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    This is a classic example of a plausibility (possibility) argument. It is indeed possible that this text means that man is composed of these three different components.

    And it is, of course, possible that the distinction being drawn here is simply the kind of distinction that one might draw if one said: "I love her body and her mind and her personality". A person could easily make this statement and not believe that the woman is "tripartite". Such a view is entirely consistent with a monistic view of the human person. Just because "mind" and "personality" are distinguished from the "body", this does not mean one can conclude that either of the former 2 are immortal consciousness-bearing entities that can survive without the body.

    So references to "spirit and soul and body" do nothing at to make the case for the tripartite nature of man. Unless one can bring other evidence to bear, one is simply not logically justified in concluding a tripartite nature to man, simply because of this kind of statement.
     
  19. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

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    Yes, it's the way that perishes, but what does it mean to perish?

    Apply the question to an individual perishing, as well, if you want.


    Luke 1:6: And they [Zechariah and Elizabeth] were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

    So, it's talking about being obedient. Works. "He that doeth righteousness." There are plenty of saved people (they are in the family) that do no righteousness.

    If the pious and wicked [the word "ungodly" can be translated as "wicked" and is translated as "wicked" in 249 of the 263 places that it is found] are being contrasted, and the righteous are righteous because of their work, then I think the last part of your quote is correct: It's those that do not the works of God. It's someone who is morally wrong.


     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    As I have shown - the lake of fire and brimstone is simply the terms that John uses where Matthew uses terms like fiery Gehenna. It is all the same. And in that case the saved only "worry" about it as a Biblical warning against falling away.

    John 15 states that being removed from the vine of Christ ALSO involves being burned in that fire.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
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