Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    In Ezek 18 and in Matt 18 we see almost entire chapters dedicated to the subject of "forgiveness revoked" (I will post a Matt 18 review here).

    The question is how is it that the "ONE Gospel" (Gal 1:6-9) of our salvation allows for "forgiveness revoked". Matt 18 we see that it involves returning all the original debt owed.

    Even more devastating - in Matt 18 Christ warns HIS followers "So shall My Father do to each one of you IF YOU do not forgive your brother from your heart".

    The same warning is given when He speaks about the Lord's Prayer.

    In Romans 11 Paul argues the same things "If HE DID NOT spare them neither will He spare you" and Paul points out "you stand only by your faith" so "you should fear and not be arrogant".

    What is all this - "Cast out of the vine of Christ" that we see in Romans 11 and in John 15?


    What is all this "Forgiveness revoked" that we see in Matt 18, Ezek 18 etc?

    How can the Gospel allow for this? The answer is that the forgiveness in the Gospel is based on God's Atonment model (God so loved the He gave) of salvation, not based on the grociery store model (these groceries are paid for already you can not have them back) or the greek pagan "appeasement model" (Christ so appeased the angry God that He finally relented of the wrath He was plannig for us).

    Thoughts?

    In Christ,

    Bob

    (Ps. This thread started as a favor to Brother James on the character vs sinful nature thread)
     
  2. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    Forgiveness has to do with justification, not with salvation.
     
  3. partialrapture

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    Even better than that Hope of Glory is the DUALISM of forgiveness in th bible...
    DUALISM OF salvation
    DUALISM of justification
    one is free apart from our forgiveness, else the Lord would have said believe and forgive all and ye shall not perish but have everlasting life

    the other in conditional upon our forgiveness and other righteous acts

    The Lord was speaking to belivers even his disciples who according to the promise in John 3
    are freely forgiven...

    why a dualism of forgiveness?
    one is to get adopted by the everlasting Father
    the other is to recieve a blessing when he comes home from work, we must do our chores, to be adopted by God? no to get a blessing within a blessing
    Genisis 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee,
    May the Lord be glorified
     
  4. Me4Him

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    OT Saints made "Sacrifices" and their sin were "FORGIVEN".

    BUT NOT "TAKEN AWAY"

    Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    WHY???

    Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


    FORGIVEN DOES NOT=paying the wages of sin, "DEATH".

    You'll have to correctly "Define" "Forgiveness", to get the "right answer/doctrine".
     
  5. Rev. Lowery

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    Wooot this subject again

    Spam post this is and a bump wooot
     
  6. steaver

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    Brother Bob still worried about possibly forgeting to forgive someone and winding up in the lake of fire! I pray you will find peace about it one day brother. Jesus has paid your full debt so don't let it trouble you. You can't be perfect like Him!

    God Bless!
     
  7. Matt Black

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    But salvation is predicated on justification!?
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

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    It is not always wise to base doctrine on parables. Jesus gave this parable to teach specific truths. Those truths are:
    1. We are all sinners and have sinned against God.
    2. God will forgive us.
    3. The offenses committed against us by our fellow man are small in comparison to our sin against God.
    4. We should be ready to forgive those who offend us.
    5. If we do not, we are subject to the wrath of God.

    Nowhere in this parable does Jesus say that God's forgiveness will be revoked. You would have to read that into the parable. Jesus would not teach something that is contrary to other clearly revealed scriptural truths. When God forgives, that sin is gone. There is no way that God's forgiveness could ever be revoked.
     
  9. Hope of Glory

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    But salvation is predicated on justification!? </font>[/QUOTE]Spiritual salvation is predicated upon accepting the free gift that has been offered based upon the perfect sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.

    Rewards are predicated upon justification. Spiritual salvation is an event; justification is a process.
     
  10. Tazman

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    AND #6 you forgot Jesus' point Forgiveness revoked. His words "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him."

    I think the point is clear! At first the servant didn't owe and now he does. Simple.

    Sure it is when Jesus has clearly explained them:

    vs 35 "This is how my(Jesus) heavenly Father (Lord/Master in this parable) WILL treat each of you (His disciples see vs 21, Peter of all people) UNLESS (condition) you forgive your brother from your heart." [​IMG]

    yep, He's clear! No need to wonder ;)

    lines up with Mark 6:15,11:25, Mat 6:14,
     
  11. Tazman

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    But salvation is predicated on justification!? </font>[/QUOTE]Spiritual salvation is predicated upon accepting the free gift that has been offered based upon the perfect sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.

    Rewards are predicated upon justification. Spiritual salvation is an event; justification is a process.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Justification and salvation are not separate.
     
  12. steaver

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    "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more".(Heb 8:12)

    Your conclusion makes God out to be a liar, no? Have you been forgiven or not? If you have, then God cannot revoke that which He declares He no longer remembers.

    God Bless!
     
  13. Hope of Glory

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    It has been shown on this board repeatedly that spiritual salvation is an event and justification is a process. However, I'll post a few of the verses so you don't have to look them up for yourself:

    Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. [Justify is durative; it's ongoing; it's a present, active, participle, used as a noun.]

    Romans 3:21-31 sets out his plan for justification. [In verse 30, "justify" is future, active, indicative.]

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [Once again, justify is durative; it's a process.]

    Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. [Justify is once again durative; it's a present, active, indicative; it's a process.]

    However, Acts 16:31, which is referring to spiritual salvation, simply says, "Believe [aorist; punctiliar, not durative] on the Lord Jesus, and you will [not may; future, passive, indicative] be saved." Salvation is an event. You believe, and you will be saved.
     
  14. Pastor_Bob

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    Sure it is when Jesus has clearly explained them:
    </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus does not teach new doctrine in His parables. He simply illustrates truths that had been previously taught in His messages to the multitude.

    For example, in the parable of the lost sheep, the shepherd "leaves" the ninety and nine in the wilderness to find the one lost sheep. Is Jesus teaching that God will "leave" us alone in this world to go and find one lost sinner? Of course not, because the Scripture very clearly teaches that God will "never leave us nor forsake us."
     
  15. Tazman

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    "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more".(Heb 8:12)

    Your conclusion makes God out to be a liar, no? Have you been forgiven or not? If you have, then God cannot revoke that which He declares He no longer remembers.

    God Bless!
    [/QUOTE]

    Not at all. Don't for get that God first says I will make a "New Covenant" as opposed to the old one.
    Yes, under the new covenant one will have their sins forgiven/forgotton, but only under the new covenant.

    1. What are the terms of this New Covanant? Is it one sided (meaning not dependent on our commitment, but totally on God's commitment to us)?

    2. Is not a covenant an agreement btwn two parties? In our case the terms are set by God.


    And please understand me, I believe under the most extreme change of heart that one may be in danger of being an enemy of God after having received Him.
     
  16. Tazman

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    Sure it is when Jesus has clearly explained them:
    </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus does not teach new doctrine in His parables. He simply illustrates truths that had been previously taught in His messages to the multitude.

    For example, in the parable of the lost sheep, the shepherd "leaves" the ninety and nine in the wilderness to find the one lost sheep. Is Jesus teaching that God will "leave" us alone in this world to go and find one lost sinner? Of course not, because the Scripture very clearly teaches that God will "never leave us nor forsake us."
    </font>[/QUOTE]Lets work with this:

    Sheep leaves. Clearly the sheep has issues: not following; does not listen any more :(

    Owner goes to find lost sheep, leaving the others obedient sheep by themselves, well, because they don't need to be found. [​IMG]

    Owner finds sheep and rejoices.

    The point: Luke 15:7 "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

    The point is not God "leaving" us alone as you may suggest, but God is happy over those who repent more than those who do not have to repent.

    a side note: Some sheep are commited to obedience and that's probably why the Owner can trust them to stay even while he's gone. [​IMG]

    There is no danger in the above conclusion long as it does not render any other scripture on the related topic unreasonable.
     
  17. Hope of Glory

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    While I don't think that parables present new doctrines, I don't think they contradict any other part of Scripture at all, and as such are used to illustrate something effectively and in truth.
     
  18. Pastor_Bob

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    I am not suggesting this point at all. I am suggesting that one could easily draw this conclusion if he takes the parable and attempts to base doctrine solely on the parable.

    The point of the parable in question in this thread is our personal forgiveness of those that offend, not God's forgiveness.

    Again I say, it is not always wise to base doctrine on parables.
     
  19. Tazman

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    I am not suggesting this point at all. I am suggesting that one could easily draw this conclusion if he takes the parable and attempts to base doctrine solely on the parable.

    The point of the parable in question in this thread is our personal forgiveness of those that offend, not God's forgiveness.

    Again I say, it is not always wise to base doctrine on parables.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Does God not tie in our forgiveness of others with his forgiveness of us?

    Yes or No? :confused:
     
  20. Pastor_Bob

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    Absolutely. But nowhere in the Word of God does it suggest that sins forgiven can be or will be revoked by God.
     

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