Matt 18 and Forgiveness Revoked

a) no. it comes to those who are convicted and ask. If you call that "belief" then it is only God who has placed that belief in you that you may call on Jesus. I don't see it that way, that is Calvinism. I see it as being shown the truth and convicted that it is the truth. From there you can ask and receive the gift or reject the offer.

b) yes, that would be a result of you asking

c) yes, that is why you were convicted

d) yes, repentance from rejection to acceptance, repentance of sins and fruitless works will follow, some immediately and many over time as the new babe learns and grows.

God Bless!

 

Let's see, you covered grace, you covered salvation, but why did you let out faith in your analysis? Isn't that part of Eph 2:8? Why yes it is and just as you applied what God has established which is "not of yourselves" you must also include "faith" in that group because that is what the scripture states. Or are you just picking out the parts that agree with what you personally feel fits your beliefs?

God Bless!

 

On God's terms. The term is ask (Luke 11:13). The Father draws, the Spirit convicts, the sinner can ask or reject the Spirit's convictions.

That is truly a "good one". The Pharisees were always good at telling the people what they should do all the while they were doing just the opposite. Go back through this thread and see how many times you did not answer a question. Then tell me how you are "good at answering" yourself.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I'm sorry, you are right, I have not answered ALL your questions

The pharasee's also had a problem of holding on to there traditions and not accepting Jesus' teachings

 

a) no. it comes to those who are convicted and ask. If you call that "belief" then it is only God who has placed that belief in you that you may call on Jesus. I don't see it that way, that is Calvinism. I see it as being shown the truth and convicted that it is the truth. From there you can ask and receive the gift or reject the offer.

b) yes, that would be a result of you asking

c) yes, that is why you were convicted

d) yes, repentance from rejection to acceptance, repentance of sins and fruitless works will follow, some immediately and many over time as the new babe learns and grows.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Good, so you admit that though all establishments to get us close to God is by God and we must do something to receive the Gift that is not of ourselves, but of God.

Yes or No?

 

Let's see, you covered grace, you covered salvation, but why did you let out faith in your analysis? Isn't that part of Eph 2:8? Why yes it is and just as you applied what God has established which is "not of yourselves" you must also include "faith" in that group because that is what the scripture states. Or are you just picking out the parts that agree with what you personally feel fits your beliefs?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Oh don't go there now, the whole reason we are breaking down the principle of the scripture (eph 2:8) is because you refuse to see it in the light of other scriptures that contradict your theology, not eph 2:8. That's all.

Let's continue:
Faith comes from hearing the word and doing what it says. Simple. Heb 11:

The premis of OSAS is against God, because it is soley based on human thinking.

We think 'There is nothing my children can do to be disown by me, and so God is the same way. And I love my children, so if God loves us He will feel the same way'

This reasoning does not point us to God but only to ourselves as the standard. Should Gods love be judged by us?

God does everything he can to keep us, but in the end it is us who decides if we want to love him still or not.

grace and peace

 

Hi Steaver,

I guess your argument is with Jesus, not with me. My post just enumerated what Jesus himself said about being a disciple and it seems you took offence at that. If you think you can be saved without being a disciple then let us know. It is a known fact that when they see the high requirements for discipleship many people have to readily admit they do not measure up. Then they come up with all kinds of theories that explain away what Jesus said so clearly.

Regarding perfection, nowere did I say that a Christian must be perfect in the sense of being infallible. We are just humans and we will make mistakes as long as we live. Fortunatelly, mistakes are not sins. Otherwise, God would expect the impossible from us.

The sinfulness or virtue of an action consists only in the motive or the ultimate intention of that action. The root cause of all sin is selfishness and this is where the initial difficulty lies for sinners. In order to get right with God we all have to repent of our selfishness and desire righteousness. Only then will our motives be pure.

Now there many folks who believe "we all sin in word, thought, and deed everyday". In my opinion, this is just a poor man-made theory, as it is the theory of "imputed righteousness". With the risk of being labeled as self-righteous I testify here that I definitely do not sin everyday. "How shall we continue in sin" after receiving the grace of God and the knowledge of the truth? "Having been set free from sin we became slaves to righteousness."

Of course, I often make mistakes and sometimes I do sin. Then I go to God in faith, confess my sin, and ask for forgiveness. But I cannot be forgiven unless I forsake that sin. To believe otherwise is just to fool yourself. God is patient and gives us enough time to repent if we are His children. It is regretable that too many will choose not to repent when they fall ino sin, and believe they can be in a state of justification while continuing in known sin. Now this is a very griveous error that will cost your soul.

I know from my own experience the sad reality of all this. Shortly after getting saved I was overcome by temptation, fell into sin, and continued for a while to indulge in it. I had no doubt that I would have gone to hell if I continued in that sin. Fortunately, the conviction got so strong that I eventualy forsook that sin and was immediately restored. Renewed assurance of salvation followed then naturally.

Now regarding sins we are not aware of, I believe they are automatically covered by the blood of Jesus. God only holds us accountable for what we know. Only willful sin can be properly called sin. Of course, as we grow in faith, He will reveal us more and more sin in our lives that we were not aware of. When God reveals sin, He expects us to forsake it if we are to continue in a state of justification.

Too many people stumble exactly at this point, like I did. They refuse to give up sin when convicted by God. Now this is where the danger of OSAS lies. These poor fellows imagine that an initial act of faith will get them to heaven apart from continuing to walk after the spirit and puting to death the deeds of the flesh.

Christian life is a fight, but the good news is that God provided us with everything we need to overcome. He is always besides us, ready to help, but it is our responsibility to remain in Him. He will never force us to stay against our will. So sad that many are lured by the deceitfulness of sin and are entangled again in the world... to their own destruction.

I hope you will receive this with the right spirit.

In Christ,
Avshalom

[ January 17, 2006, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Avshalom ]

 

I do not consider answering "yes" to God's invite a deed or work. I guess that is where we will always differ.

Good deflection.

Unless you find out what it means to be "born again" you will never understand God's Father to child relationship.

God Bless!

 

To be perfectly honest brother, I never feel offended by anyone I deliberate with. I even had a brother declare me to hell because I am married to another man's ex-wife. It does not offend me because I know the truth. I also am very at peace with what God has shown me about OSAS. Also, I do not think one can be saved without becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ. Being saved makes one a disciple of Jesus Christ. It comes with the Holy Spirit package.

Take care and God Bless!

 

What does #2 mean? I wasn't refering to it above. I just don't understand what you are saying "OUTSIDE the PARABLE"

God Bless!

 

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant (vss. 23-25) was used by Jesus to reinforce the power and importance of the principle of forgiveness. A certain king represents God, the sovereign Father (cf. vs. 35), to whom the debt is owed. The one who owed him is a servant or satrap who had access to the kings money, and represents the individual sinner. Ten thousand talents was an insurmountable debt equivalent to millions of dollars in our society. It represents the debt of sin which the sinner cannot possibly pay by himself. The command that he be sold...and payment to be made indicates his being placed in a debtor's prison. However, an entire lifetime of service could never repay such a debt. The interpreter must stick to the main point of the parable and not be sidetracked by its minor details. The compassion of the king releases him and forgives (cancels) the debt . the picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the point of salvation. The debt has been paid by Christ and we are set free from it forever!
28-35. The contrast in verse 28, where the same servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred pence (about ten dollars) is deliberately prersented as a hideous hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a Christian discipple, who has been forgiven a lifetime of sin, to be unforgiving of others. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called a wicked servant because no true believer would do such. The unforgiving servant is not the one who was saved and then lost his salvation. The story is merely hypothetical; no one forgiven a debt of millions would behave this way, therefore, the intention of the parable is to challenge the genuineness of the disciple's conversion. A truly saved man would never behave like the man in the story, who was delivered to the tormentors . This is certainly not a reference to purgatory. One behaving in this manner falls into the condemnation of the lost. The searching threat of verse 35 does not mean that a true believer will be lost, but if he claims to be born of God, he will act like a born-again person. True forgiveness "from the heart" of a regenerated man is one of the true signs of genuine salvation and conversion (cf. Eph 4:32). Saved people are both forgiven and forgiving. Unforgiving people prove that they have never been born of God.

Edward E. Hindson, Th.D., D.Min. B.A., William Tyndale Colledge; M.A., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School; Th.M., Grace Theological Seminary; Th.D., Trinity Graduate School of Theology; D.Min., Westminister Theological Seminary; D.Litt. (Hon.), California Graduate school of Theology.

Now this would allow harmony with Eph 2:8, Romans 11:29. There are other viable interpretations as well, the saved becoming lost is not one of them.

God Bless!

 

Of course YOU don't and that's the problem. At what point in time did God give you the ability to draw the line between what is a "Work" and what is not?

Yes or No, Is it not true that when the apostles address the issue of "works" that they are specifically referring to the LAW of Moses (Circumcision) and not to the Teaching of Christ?

Yes or No, are Jesus commands "Work"?

Your bleif is not based on Jesus' teachings, but only on your theology. If you did accept Jesus' teachings you would be able to admit:

1. The parable of Mat 18 was given to believers about believers

2. The Master is Obviously GOD

3. The servants Obviously the Disciples

4. Foregiveness was revoked

Unless you have an ear to Hear what the spirit says to the church you will never repent.

Your problem is simple: you believe man more than Jesus.

Your OSAS theology is causing suffering of not being able to harmonize scripture thus seing the truth, but rather it causes men to not believe Jesus.

Put your guard down for just a second.
Read John 15:1-17

1. you should be able to see clearly that it lines up with Rom 11 (perfectly).

2. Ask yourself one question... "Is Jesus' love unconditional", don't have a knee-jerk reaction to the question, but write down any statements of conditions that he preached to the desciples.

I am truly trying to help you be fair to yourself.

[ January 18, 2006, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Tazman ]

 

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".(2Ti 2:15)

Jesus taught..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast".

Some are and some are not. We are commanded to believe, but faith is not a "work".

"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".(2Ti 2:15)

Dig a little deeper.

God Bless!

 

Seems to be placing alot of confidence in man.