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Featured Matt 18 and Matt 6 Disprove OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Of course not! For it would not be the gospel and it would have no power to change a life. It would just be another religion of working oneself to justification before God. We already have a few hundred of these religions already, Jesus Christ changed the game. Most the Jews didn't like it and neither did Ellen White nor Joseph Smith, nor that feller who began the JW's.
     
    #21 steaver, Dec 6, 2013
  2. thisnumbersdisconnected

    thisnumbersdisconnected New Member

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    Posting this on both threads, which are a humongous waste of time.

     
    #22 thisnumbersdisconnected, Dec 6, 2013
  3. Jordan Kurecki

    Jordan Kurecki Well-Known Member
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    How many times do I have to correct you on Romans 11 being about Israel being cut off and God switching to dealing with man through the church? that has nothing to do with individuals losing their salvation. and the Galatians fell from grace in that they were trying to be justified by their works. Stop using these passages to refer to losing salvation.
     
    #23 Jordan Kurecki, Dec 6, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Just did a quick skim of all the posts to the end of the thread.

    Sure enough - not one person even looks at the Bible chapters in the OP. But lots of "derail to the left or derail to the right" and some even "you are evil for pointing this out".

    Try "again". This time with some attention to the actual chapters referenced - hopefully even get to the point where you can quote the "Bible details" that are currently so obvious that OSAS does not survive the text.

    Here they are "again" from the OP.

    =================================

    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


    There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.
     
    #24 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Ok Bob, according your interpretation of Matt 6:15 the sin that will cause FORGIVENESS REVOKED is not forgiving someone.

    What else will send a born again believer to hell? Or is that the only one?
     
    #25 Amy.G, Dec 6, 2013
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    OK - I guess this your way of saying you do not see how OSAS survives the Lord's Prayer Matt 6 and the teaching of Christ in Matt 18.... so you want to talk about "something else".

    Fine let's see if you have something more than "inference" and can avoid the befuddled Calvinist option in the banker's scenario with the massive inference you will need to prove OSAS.

    Sooner or later you will need to pay attention to the Bible details that refute OSAS - instead of "only being willing to discuss" those Bible texts that do not directly contradict the assumptions and inferences of the OSAS tradition.

    I assume this is your "nice way" of saying "The following scripture proves OSAS to be valid".




    At this point we see why someone who believe OSAS would ONLY want to talk about the sheep that "Follow ME" as Christ said and that "hear my voice" (ie listen to the WORD of God and follow what He says).

    By contrast - in the Matt 18 and Matt 6 we have the saved saints, the fully forgiven who at some point (after years or months) DO NOT follow what God says - even though they have been fully forgiven.

    So while they were in a condition where they WERE listening and following - at some point they do ... what Matt 18 SAYS they do to make a wrong choice.

    So your John 10 text does not explicitly even deal with that Matt 18, and Matt 6 case. No wonder you want to talk about John 10 "instead".

    How predictable a solution for OSAS - it is of the form "just ignore the problem".


    Notice what Christ said about the sheep that do listen and that do follow Him - -the faithful ones that continue to be faithful.

    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    Oops! That last point of Christ is the very "banker's scenario" yhou claim is worthless and not worth mentioning.

    Which proves that pulpit pounding and "harrumph!" are not the solution to every Bible detail that debunks OSAS.


    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    Again the banker's scenario where the robber is said to Not be able to break into the vault and steal the treasure. They very point in the discussion you claimed to be worthless when I brought it up.

    Which proves that pulpit pounding and "harrumph!" are not the solution to every Bible detail that debunks OSAS.

    I think that everyone should try paying attention to "Bible details" rather than simply ignoring them when OSAS is not surviving the text.

    Now i have carefully shown you the flaw in your own OSAS spin and inference in John 10.

    So is "now" the point where you are even willing to look at the Bible chapters in the OP??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #26 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not asking you for my interpretation of anything.

    I am asking that you read the actual texts, the actual Bible details and show how OSAS survives it. Because as we can all see at this point not one person in favor of OSAS has been able to show that OSAS survives the text -- except to ignore the text. (Like that works for sola scriptura TESTING of doctrine and tradition).

    here the are the two easy Bible references again ----=================================

    Matt 18 is another place where "forgiveness revoked" is a subject of the Bible - often ignored by those clinging to man-made-tradition over the Word of God.

    [FONT=&quot]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'[/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]


    Matt 6

    12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
    14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

    15 But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.


    There is a long list of other texts that disprove OSAS in the same way - such as those we find in Ezek 18.
     
    #27 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Jordan - I believe you are genuine and sincere in wishing that Romans 11 did not refute OSAS. In all fairness to you I have started a thread just for a comparison of your point on Romans 11 and what the text acutally says to refute OSAS. There so you can see if your case will hold up to the Bible details actually in Romans 11.

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2059065#post2059065


    That way we can leave our OSAS friends the incredibly simple task on this thread - of seen if OSAS survives Matt 18 and Matt 6.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #28 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    How can the witness about a God who cannot save? Are they going to tell some silly story about a banker who won't give you your money!
     
    #29 OldRegular, Dec 6, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Sooo many excuses for ignoring the Bible details in Matt 18 and Matt 6... soooo little time??
     
    #30 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  11. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Bob, you cannot answer a question. You can only post the same verses over and over.

    There can be no discussion with you.
     
    #31 Amy.G, Dec 6, 2013
  12. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Bob, the problem with this view is that it argues God could be fooled or deceived by man.

    God knows a man's heart. If a man has not forgiven those that owe him a debt, then he would not forgive that man's debt to begin with.
     
    #32 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    There is no place in Matt 18 or in Matt 6 where Jesus said "if you can fool God -- then you can lose your salvation".

    I think we can all agree on that point at least.

    IF instead of having this text we had one that said "if the lost man comes to God without first forgiving others even though he has not yet been forgiven - then his debt simply remains and there is no change one day to the next" then we would not even be talking about Matt 18 or Matt 6.

    But in both Matt 18 and Matt 6 it is the saved adopted-child of God -- followers of Christ that are to forgive others BECAUSE they have been fully forgiven already "in the same way" as Christ said in Matt 18.

    In other words this is not a barrier for the lost person telling him he must forgive others even though lost and sinful - but rather telling the saved fully forgiven saint "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt - should you not have forgiven others in the SAME WAY as I forgave you".

    Forgiveness of others is only expected as a "reaction" to having fully been forgiven - by God first.

    And that is the problem for OSAS. It is in 'the details' that OSAS has the problem.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #33 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Your response was to ignore all of Matt 18 and Matt 6 and ask for some "other reasons" for the saints losing salvation. And of course we can have a thread on Galatians 5 -- where "other reasons" are indeed listed. I will start that thread if you insist.

    But as we all know - if OSAS fails in Matt 18 and Matt 6 -- it fails.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #34 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Bob, you know as well as I do that God knows a man's heart. If a man has not forgiven all his neighbor's debt, he would not forgive that man's debt to begin with.

    Now you know that this argument is true, why not just admit it? Why continue to hold to error when you have been corrected?
     
    #35 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Those two passages say absolutely nothing about a believer losing his/her salvation because they do not forgive someone. It says that "God will not forgive us". So we have a conflict in Scripture,you say, since that universally known verse of Scripture John 3:16 states: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Everlasting life is everlasting life. It does not last until I commit some sin such as failing to forgive some one. Now the passages you present say nothing about the unforgiven one no longer believing in Jesus Christ does it?

    Now if a true believer sins against God in any way and fails to confess that sin he will disrupt the fellowship that exists between God and himself but he cannot breech that fellowship. The Apostle John in 1 John 2:1 tells us: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:. Not only do we have an advocate in Jesus Christ we have the Holy Spirit who seals us, keeps us, until the day of Redemption.

    2 Corinthians 1:22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
    Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Ephhesians 4:30. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    Consider King David, "a man after God's own heart" [Acts 13:22] who sinned grievously against God in his adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband. Are you telling us that David, this man after God's own heart, was no longer saved?


    You can play your silly bankers scenario all you want but it is a silly way to approach Scripture. Perhaps that is your problem!

    Jesus Christ is quite clear when he says the following:

    28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    No man means "no man"!

    Assume what you wish but if you believe your god cannot keep safe those for whom Jesus Christ died then you serve a pathetic god, NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE1




    The only sheep that Jesus Christ has are those who know His voice and follow Him!

    Consider that passage of Scripture that you parrot: [You really need to get a complete set of Scripture, all 66 Books.}

    Matthew 18:32-35
    32. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    33. Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    34. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    35. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    You are reading something into the parable that is not there. The lord of the servant does not give him over to destruction but to punishment. Any Christian, and by Christian I mean one who is truly saved, understands the misery of a broken fellowship with God. If you would study more than a few "proof texts" you might understand Scripture and sleep well tonight.

    Consider what we are told in the following Scripture:

    Hebrews 12:4-8
    4. Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
    5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
    6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    God chasten His children when they sin against Him. That is what the master did to the servant in the parable. If one sins against God, does not repent, and seek forgiveness then God will chasten him. If he is not chastened then he better lay awake at night and pray because God says that one is a "bastard" and not a "son"!



    It is not my John 10 text its is the Word of God. Do not be flippant about the Word of God. That reflects badly on you!

    I ignore nothing except a "smart mouth"!




    It is you who do not listen. There are non so blind as those who will not see. There are non so deaf as those who will not hear. God through the Prophet Isaiah says it thus:

    Isaiah 6:9,10
    9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
    10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    Jesus Christ repeats this warning in Matthew 13:14, 15
    14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Given your vast propensity to ignore the Word of God one wonders if Jesus Christ is speaking to you!

    I have spent considerable time responding to your diatribe against those who believe that God whom I worship is able to Keep that which I have committed to Him against that Day. The remainder of your post consists of smirking remarks and is not worthy of response. Actually all your posts are nothing but smirking remarks.
     
    #36 OldRegular, Dec 6, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The text of Matt 18 does not say that God waits to forgive the lost --

    It says that the lost become saved - fully forgiven and THEN God expects them to do likewise. God is not telling Himself to "Go and do likewise" -- He tells His own fully forigven servant "I FORGAVE you ALL that debt" and does not say "You should have forgiven others BEFORE I did that". Such a scenario does not exist where God expects the lost to be so perfect first - and then later become saved.

    You keep reversing the order as if that actually existed in the text. We both know that one cannot forgive others AS THEY have BEEN forgiven by God - if in fact they have not BEEN forgiven.

    Does God say to the unforgiving servant "you should NOT have forgiven others just as I did NOT forgive you -- so how dare you forgive your brother"? That would be the reverse of the actual text.

    Rather it is the fact that God DID forgive the servant that places the servant under obligation to his brother.

    I can't imagine how we both cannot see this point clearly.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #37 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Amy,

    I spent considerable time responding to Ryan. It is a waste of time and I don't have time to waste. I believe that Ryan and his clone have one purpose: To peddle their nonsense on this Forum and create dissension.

    He obviously has been on the Forum a long time but I have only recently had occasion to notice his posts. As far as I am concerned the best thing to do is ignore him. He responds to no one only repeats himself endlessly!
     
    #38 OldRegular, Dec 6, 2013
  19. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Bob, your argument is nonsensical and contradictory. You say that a man does not have to forgive his neighbors to be forgiven, but once he is forgiven he must forgive his neighbors to stay forgiven.

    Make up your mind, does a man have to forgive his neighbors to be forgiven or not?

    Your argument cannot be true because it is a contradiction.
     
    #39 Winman, Dec 6, 2013
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    If you know of some other way for them to experience full forgiveness from God without being saved... if you have some "Bible" that says the lost are fully forgiven and are expected to forgive others just as they themselves have experienced full forgiveness and yet are lost -- fully forgiven and lost - then please point us to the text.

    If you have a Bible where some of the lost do not fully forgive others just as God has forgiven them- and then where some DO forgive others - and yet all be lost.

    Please point us to the text.

    No sense in making stuff up now - because you will have solved the problem for OSAS.

    Or would you rather talk about something else??

    Ok then - "something else" other than the "fully forgiven" being subject to "forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18, Matt 6.

    Who knew you would want to avoid the Bible details in Matt 18 and Matt 6?? I mean "who knew"??

    You refer to 1John 2:1 and 1John 1:9 where the servant/the-saint of falls into sin repents and turns to God.

    WE are not talking about one mistake and you are lost - the example in Matt 18 is of the servant being begged to relent to turn from stubborn unforgiving spirit - and he refuses to change course. That man experiences forgiveness revoked according to Christ in Matt 18.


    As you point out - he "claims" to continue to believe - but by his actions he betrays the fact that he is no longer that humble servant that begged the king for mercy in the early days.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #40 BobRyan, Dec 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2013
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