Matthew 25:41 and the Lost

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by icthus, Jun 20, 2005.

  1. icthus

    icthus
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    For those who hold to the doctrine, that God has from eternity past predestined the "elect" to eternal life, and also planned/predestined that the lost will suffer eternal punishment in hell fire; what do you make of the words of Jesus Christ, who said that hell was originally created for the devil and his angles (Matthew 25:41)? Surely this verse destroys the doctrine that all things have been foreordained by God before the foundation of the world, even the actions of the unsaved.
     
  2. The Bible Answer Kid

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    You see, icthus, sometimes it helps to read stuff in context. Therefore, I'm going to put the reference that you refer to in context. Also, it helps if you recognize what kind of literature you're reading from (poetry, law, narrative, etc.) I'll give you a hint: It's a parable -- namely the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats...

    Matthew 25
    31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
    34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

    40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

    41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

    44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

    45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

    46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
     
  3. OCC

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    TBAK...would that mean anytime in the psalms or parables that God talks about hating anyone, we have to remember what type of literature we are reading and the context? I would guess if "...hell prepared for the devils and angels" doesn't mean exactly what it says then "God hates" doesn't mean exactly what it says right?
     
  4. The Bible Answer Kid

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    I was just stating a rule of hermeneutics that the the larger context of a passage helps us determine the meaning of the smaller portions of the text and the smaller portions help determine the meaning of the whole text. I never said that icthus was wrong. I just thought that the context of the whole passage could help answer the question.

    In Christ,
    The Bible Answer Kid
     
  5. johnp.

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    How about this:

    The angels fell on the days of creation before the fall of man. Thus Hell was created for the fallen angels.
    Jesus who said that hell was originally created for the devil and his angles

    How's that?

    john.
     
  6. icthus

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    What you show does not change the meaning of what I have written. Why not trying to deal with the points that I have raised, than being clever about hermeneutics?
     
  7. icthus

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    John, what do you mean, "how's that"? Have you not read the passage in Matthew? Nor have you answered my points above. How can God have perdestined all things before the foundation of the world, as Calvinism teaches, when hell was NOT originally created for fallen man?
     
  8. johnp.

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    Hello icthus.
    What do you think. That's what it means.
    I skimmed it. :cool: This time.
    What do you mean 'nor'? What point? That God created Hell for the angels and then found further use for it? When it was created it was created for the angels seems like a good answer to me.
    It was created for the fallen angels. I don't see how that affects the matter. Hell was originally created for fallen angels. Remember it was not created until after they fell before the end of the creation period, 6 days. He created Hell after not before the fall of angels. (I don't know) He could not create Hell after the fall of man because He had His feet up. Man will have to shack up with that lot of demons. :cool: They are good company for each other.
    Don't forget that Hell must be a place that flesh and blood can exist in so that was incorporated into it's design.

    What do you think?

    john.
     
  9. whatever

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    I think you are assuming too much. It doesn't say whether the eternal fire was created before Satan fell or after. It also doesn't say that the lost were never intended to be there. Neither does it say that the doom of the lost has taken God by surprise. Any of those statements may be true but this passage does not prove any of them.
     
  10. johnp.

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    Hello whatever.
    Having never seen the question before my mind concocted that assumption(s) before I could stop it! :cool: I shot from the hip and I think it sounds sound. I beg to differ I don't think it assumes very much at all.
    But it does. "MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
    The eternal fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels! :cool: That's who Hell was prepared for. Is that right? What does the word Devil mean?
    I'm not sure what you mean but if I say this, that God did not create Hell before the fall of angels, there is no need for a place of punishment before a crime is committed, and after the fall of man He did not need to create one for us but utilises the first Hell. If God did not create a place of punishment before the fall of angels, because He is not using fear as a weapon, then He would not create a Hell for men before they fell. It sounds resonable to me. But when man fell God had finished the work of creation so we shack up with the others. Nothing unplanned just cause and effect in operation. Any better?
    He knows everything.
    I agree with you. As I said I was shooting from the hip. I think my first answer was sufficient, Hell was created for the Devil and his angels, not God's angels. Simple as that. Jesus doesn't say it was not intended for human occupancy. :cool:
    Maybe someone has a proper explanation of this verse but I have never seen the question before. The answer about when Hell was created cannot be proved by scripture and verse it just sounds cool to me. I have been thinking of it of and on all evening and I can't see any problem with it.

    john.
     
  11. johnp.

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    GE 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.
    So the fall of angels happened after the sixth day but still before Adam and Eve.

    MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

    So it was prepared not created out of new stuff but like Adam it was created using available material. If that is so then my 'Remember it was not created until after they fell before the end of the creation period, 6 days. is wrong.

    'prepared for the devil and his angels' Sounds a bit like the spare bedroom.

    john.
     
  12. whatever

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    I meant that icthus was assuming too much.

    But it does. "MT 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
    The eternal fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels! :cool: That's who Hell was prepared for. Is that right? What does the word Devil mean?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Of course it says who it was created for, but it does not say when it was created. Again, that was in response to icthus' claim that not everything was foreordained by God.
     
  13. OCC

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    TBAK, don't worry...I don't have a problem with you. I was more just clarifying a few things to deal with those I do have a problem with. God bless.
     
  14. whatever

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    You are correct, and since it means "exactly what it says" then it can't mean more than what it says, can it? For example, it doesn't say "prepared only for the devil and his angels", so it can't mean that, if it means exactly what it says. Yet this passage is often taken to mean "prepared only for the devil and his angels". So your point is worth remembering.
     
  15. OCC

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    Thanks.
     
  16. The Bible Answer Kid

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    Thank you all for this lively discussion so far...
     

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