Matthew 28:1

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2010.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    GE:
    It is no “Greek term” which in Matthew 28:1 is “translated "dawn"” in the KJV; it is the PHRASE, ‘eis mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’- “TOWARDS the First Day of the week”. The KJ did very well with FURTHER having described this particular ‘stage’ of the day, by having ADDED: “As it BEGAN to dawn …..”, “towards the First Day”.

    Why do I say the KJV did well? Because it in agreement with the foregoing, concurs with, and confirms, that this particular ‘stage’ of day-time has BEGUN, and did not END. It was “In / On the Sabbath late, Sabbath’s MID-afternoon”, with the REST of the afternoon – three solid hours of it – REMAINING before end of day, sunset.

    It is of tremendous importance, as this point in time of the day-cycle has been mistaken for ‘sundown’ right at the periphery of the Sabbath. Which is begging the question, and worse, is plain incorrect and false --- with NO ‘due respect’ to the COG-fundi’s.

    And of even greater importance is it, because this point in time of the day-cycle AT THE BEGINNING OF THE LAST THREE HOURS OF THE FRIDAY, has in Luke 23:54 been mistaken for ‘sundown’ right at the periphery of the Sixth Day of the week or “Preparation”. Which is not here the subject of discussion ….
     
  2. DHK

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    Why?

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
     
  3. Dr. Walter

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    I have no idea what Greek text you are using but my Greek text uses the word "epiphoskouse" which is the present active participle of the term "epephosko" and it literaly means "getting brighter" or "to grow light"

    Look at the Greek participle before the prepositional phrase you are quoting!



     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    What is important in what you are saying, dear DHK, is not about 'days'; it's trying to be honestly persuaded in one’s own mind, first of all; Next it is to find out the true Word of God-- whether it says left, or whether it says right; whether is says true or false.

    And then not to be persuaded otherwise .... otherwise than the Truth of God's Word.

    Not about days or the veneration men might have for days, this one or that one.

    That is my purpose; that was Paul's purpose in Romans 14. But why do you, DHK, moderator, bring Romans 14 up here? To steer me off-track? I'm an old fox, DHK. I smell a rat a mile off. They say smell is the only sense organ that improves with old age… despite a brain that deteriorates. That’s the way life goes.

    Do I now persuade men? If, may I be persuaded thoroughly myself. Maybe I can persuade other men too (maybe only find out who are worthy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ); that will be a gratuity of God’s goodness. Not about days … but about “Now when the Church adjourned and separated and WAS BROKEN UP”— ON THE SABBATH DAY— BECAUSE OF JESUS CHRIST— “many (were) PERSUADED TO CONTINUE IN THE GRACE OF GOD.”

    Discord, faction regardless BaptistBoard even have a special forum for those of different persuasion. Thanks to BaptistBoard. God bless you for this medium to try to persuade people of another’s opinion. Why be hypocritical about it?
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    I quoted (transliterated) to you the text I’m using. You know as well I do which it is.

    So far I have not referred to or used the Greek text for the words "tehi epiphoskousehi" Participle-Noun which is the Dative Feminine Singular Present Active from the Noun ‘epiphohskousas’ which is from the Verb "epiphosko", and it literally means "BEING IN THE VERY BRIGHTNESS" (OF DAYLIGHT “MID-AFTERNOON”). Look at this Greek Noun with THIS meaning used for as long as it was used up to and including the third century AD with NO exceptions, once. (You can find that information or the best part of it, here, http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book 2. Resurrection.pdf
     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    DHK:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn [​IMG]
    It is of tremendous importance,

    Why?


    GE:
    Emphasis above, mine.

    We shall have to wait and see as things progress....
     
    #6 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2010
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I was in a hurry here and have said some things in an odd way. But I'm sure you will get my point, which was in short a denial of the opinion "as it began to dawn towards the First day" is supposed to be translated from 'tehi epiphoskousehi' and not from 'eis mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn'.

    However, were "as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week" translated from 'tehi epiphoskousehi', IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE— the fact that ‘tehi epiphoskousehi’ virtually does translate into "as it began to dawn towards ……", confirms the supposed time of day fell upon the current day “of-the-Sabbath-Day”- ‘sabbatohn’, “BEFORE” and “TOWARDS, the First Day of the week”. Then the two phrases are complementary just from another angle, so that the Dative functions as the Dative of Relation or Reference both ways, to “Sabbath” and, “towards the First Day”. These factors by themselves indicate the Greek is not to be translated pleonastic— the same thing unnecessarily being repeated through the different phrases of ‘eis mian sabbatohn’ AND, ‘tehi epiphoskousehi’. Both phrases each has its own peculiar meaning, which must ALWAYS be expected to be as near to the literal meaning as possible. Therefore I say no, “as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week”, MUST and IS, correctly translated (in the KJV) from the LAST phrase, ‘eis mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’.

    This last phrase IN ITSELF is an example of Matthew’s most economic use of words for their commonly known, ‘literal’ meaning and usage, which in the phrase ‘eis mian sabbatohn’ is elliptical of the concept, ‘day’— “the First DAY, of the week”. (OMITTING the word ‘day’ as such as most effective way to imply its presence and function within the phrase.) And this linguistic phenomenon of the Ellipsis shows Matthew would not have used the phrases “in the being mid-afternoon” and “towards the First Day of the week” pleonastic or superfluously.
     
    #7 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 12, 2010
  8. Dr. Walter

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    It is no “Greek term” which in Matthew 28:1 is “translated "dawn"” in the KJV; it is the PHRASE, ‘eis mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’ - GE

    Your statement above is factually wrong. It is not the "phrase" translated "dawn" but it is the Greek participle translated "dawn."

    Neither does the term epiphosko mean "being in the very brightness" but it consists of the preposition "epi" and "phosko" or literally "upon light" and most lexicogophers translate it "dawn" or "to grow light." It is used in a figurative sense as we use the word "dawn" when we say "it began to dawn upon him" or the idea of something coming upon you. Luke 23:54 it is used in the figurative sense as it was just before 6 pm when Jesus was buried and the Sabbath EVENING - period of darkness was coming upon them and yet Luke says the Sabbath "drew on" (epiphosko) meaning the Sabbath day was coming upon them - the sundown period - was coming upon them. Hence, it is obvious it does not mean "being in the very brightness" or "mid-afternoon" in Luke 23:54 but rather it was near sun down in the evening. Remember this time of year the sun sets earlier (march/april) in Israel.

    However, as John Broadus, the Greek mentor of A.T. Robertson points out that Matthew 28:1 most likely means after the Sabbath passed and the dawn of the daylight hours of the first day of week was come they arrived at the tomb. He refers to the oriental expression "the gates would be closed at sunset and opened at dawn" to support this position.



     
  9. DHK

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    I am not hypocritical. What makes you think I am? I asked Why? What difference does it make. The early Christians worshiped every day. One day was not more important than another. Christians in Muslim lands that I have been to worship mostly on Fridays because that is the Muslim holy day. It is for a practical reason. It is the day that they can get off work and find the time to worship--a day that God ordained as a day of rest. Does the name of the day really matter?
    In another place I know of a man who pastored five different churches. He went to one congregation on a separate day of the week. Each day of the week would be considered "holy" to that particular congregation. No! It isn't the day that you worship; it is the importance of the worship. It is important that you worship Christ, period. Choose a day; any day, and worship Him who died for you. The day you choose is not important.
     
  10. Dr. Walter

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    It is true that the ultimate application of the fourth commandment is day in and day out worship for eternity. It is also true that PERSONALLY we should be in a state of worship every day of the week. However, it is equally true that there is a day of the week designated by the Scriptures as the "Lord's day" set apart for PUBLIC worship. Nothing makes that day more holy than any other day except for the Lord's designation as "the Lord's day."

    I believe that Hebrews 4:1-11 argues for a present "sabbath day observance" for the people of God that is BETTER than the Jewish seventh day of the week Sabbath because it commemorates a GREATER work than original creation - the work of redemption and because it points forward to a BETTER created world than this present one (v. 11). The "he" in verse 9 and his finished work is compared to God's creative FINISHED work in Genesis 2:1-3 when there WAS NO SIN! The distinction is the first SINLESS work of God became condemned by sin, however the finished work of "him" who is later identified in verse 14 as our "Great High Preist" finished a work that REVERSED the first work of God which was SINLESS TO SINFUL whereas Calvary dealt with the SINFUL to usher in a SINLESS new creation (v. 11).

    For this cause it is "the Lord's Day" and the best place to be "on" the Lord's Day is in God's House "in the Spirit."

    GE denies it but from Revelation 1:10 for the next three hundred years up until but BEFORE Constantine's Sunday law the universal practice of Christians was to observe the EIGHTH day, first day, Sunday, resurrection day as the "Lord's Day."

    It is the command of the Scriptures (Psalm 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; Heb. 4:9; Mark 16:9; 1 Cor. 16:1-2 as well as the practice of the early churches (Jn. 20:19,26; Acts 2:1; 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2).

    How do we observe it? By going to the house of God giving our tithes, time and service according to the worship that is in Spirit and in truth = we will rejoice and be glad IN IT (Psa.118:24).
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    When I wrote that last remark, I KNEW DHK is going to take it personally. At first I meant it with regard to myself; then thought, a well, if DHK is going to take it personally, so be it. But take it in context DHK, with reference to the last statement I made, not with reference to the introductory statement way back, please.

    But you keep on trying to distract from the real issue, DHK, with your philosophizing about Romans 14. Find every point you are raising, answered, here, http://www.biblestudents.co.za/books/Book%204,%204.Rom.pdf

    I am not going to answer any of your objections with reference to Romans 14, on this thread. In the last few posts I received homework for another year.
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    delete; too small print
     
    #12 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2010
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    Re: DW, “….the term epiphosko means "being in the very brightness" but it consists of the preposition "epi" and "phosko" or literally "upon light" ….” Exactly. Have I said something different? Yes, in the way I emphasized; but in nothing else. Because this combination of elements, Article, ‘tehi’ + Preposition ‘epi + Substantive ‘phos’ + Participle ‘ous-- + Dative ‘--ehi’ is in every respect of it, as emphatic as can be. Its translation in the simplest way possible with “mid afternoon” cannot be improved on; it may only be described in more detail and emphatically, like I did, “being in the very brightness (with reference to of the Sabbath’s )”. I have not translated one iota or tittle that is not in the meaning of the literal Greek.

    If a person who didn’t know Christianity but had only a knowledge of Greek before Christianity, were given Mt28:1 from ‘opse’ to ‘ehlthen Mariam’ to translate into now-a-days English, he might have translated “the term epiphosko”, “literally”, “upon light” as you, Dr Walter say. Or more probably, “light upon”, or, “light on” or “onto” or “over”; but most likely, not “light on”, but “light IN”; “SHINING”, “IN shining of the Sabbbath’s Day it being late in / on the Sabbath”.

    That person would have had NO other precedent of the use or meaning of the term or group of akin terms of ‘epiphohskoh’ in all of Greek literature with the use or meaning of after the Sabbath passed and the dawn of the daylight hours NEXT MORNING! Dis a feit soos ‘n koei! Now in the light of these considerations, let us again look at what YOU – not GE! – further have to say….

    “.....the term epiphosko …. consists of the preposition "epi" and "phosko" or literally "upon light" and most lexicogophers [sic.] translate it "dawn" or "to grow light."

    To grow light” is the direct opposite of ‘to GLOW LIGHT’, which is the ONLY, “literally” possible ‘translation’ of “BEING / IN THE being / in the VERY being LIGHT / DAY / DAYLIGHT”.

    Then must it always be kept in mind the Preposition ‘epi’ has that specific connotation of something “inclining towards” (like in ‘episxeroh’- ‘to time’ something ‘by degrees’), besides its emphatic meaning of “right IN” / “in the EPI-CENTRE” of something, and besides its ‘descending’ connotation like in being “struck by lightning”- ‘episkehptoh’.

    Therefore “epiphohskoh” is the DIRECT OPPOSITE of ‘episkoteoh’- ‘to throw darkness / shadow over’. So ‘epiphohskoh’ is not while midnight darkness blankets the earth or while the shadow of night retreats before sunrise— is not “GROW light”— but is “to throw light over / upon”— “to SHINE LIGHT / DAYLIGHT”, and in our context, to “shine light in its fullness of Sabbath’s mid-afternoon”. Contrast “light shining up from the darkness into your hearts” in 2Cor4:6, ‘ek skotous phohs lampsei en kardiais’.

    THAT, is what ‘epiphohskousehi’ in Mt28:1 “literally” means, forget that silly excuse for “literally” of scholasticism, “.....the term epiphosko …. is used in a figurative sense as we use the word "dawn"....” as in before sunrise dawn. …. “literally’ “figurative”? To use your words, Dr Walter, “What a joke!

    But look at your own ‘explanation’, Dr Walter. You say, “as we use the word "dawn" when we say "it began to dawn upon him" or the idea of something coming upon you”…. dawn ON him …. as when we say the BRIGHT idea coming OVER you….? Indeed, “.....the term epiphosko …. consists of the preposition "epi" and "phosko" or literally "upon light" or rather “light upon” like that ‘BRIGHT idea’!

    So what most lexicographerstranslate” in the first place must carefully be concluded from to make sure one does not conclude wrongly from them; and in the second place must not be taken for granted for correct— whoever they are; however great they are.


    DW:
    Luke 23:54 it (the term epiphosko) is used in the figurative sense as it was just before 6 pm when Jesus was buried and the Sabbath EVENING - period of darkness was coming upon them and yet Luke says the Sabbath "drew on" (epiphosko) meaning the Sabbath day was coming upon them - the sundown period - was coming upon them.

    GE:
    Now what on earth could have brought about the change? I mean – to above – in “Matthew 28:1 …the term epiphosko …is used in the figurative sense as …we use the word "dawn" when we say’, “3-4 am” before sunrise; here – “in Luke 23:54 …it was near sun down in the evening.

    ‘Epiphoskoh’ isn’t used figuratively in Matthew or Luke. But it is used figuratively in Ephesians 5:14. O what wonderful Scriptures! “ARISE (‘anásta’<‘aná’ ‘up’ + ’theoh’- ‘set up’)
    out (from under) (‘ek’)
    the dead (as the sun would rise out from the night’s darkness),
    and Christ will SHINE (from above) ON (‘epiphausei’) you”!

    Light shining over and upon even IN you” EMPHATICALLY! That is, because of ‘epi’+‘phohs’+‘ei’ the 99% exact same constituent parts of the 99% same word used in Mt28:1— “Mid-afternoon Sabbath’s”!

    DW:
    Hence, it is obvious it does not mean "being in the very brightness" or "mid-afternoon" in Luke 23:54 but rather it was near sun down in the evening. Remember this time of year the sun sets earlier (march/april) in Israel.

    GE:
    You are splitting hair from my Dutchman uncle’s bald head. “In Luke 23:54” being “near sun down in the evening” is nothing than “being in the very brightness” or “mid-afternoon” winter or summer in Israel.
     
  14. Dr. Walter

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    There is a vast difference between something beginning to dawn upon your mind and a "bright idea." The former is GRADUAL whereas the latter is FULLY DEVELOPED. to "grow light" is GRADUALLY GETTING LIGHTER but "FULL LIGHT" is something far different.

    I believe Dr. Broadus is correct here when the overall context is considered with his oriental illustration that it refers to the following morning from Sabbath evening to Sunday morning light dawning.
     
  15. DHK

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    What makes you think I took anything personally. I did not.
    I pointed out to you the reality of the situation, even today.
    Many people around the world, even today, cannot worship except on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc., for the same reason that churches in America a few hundred years had the same problem. They had circuit riding preachers, and would gather whenever the preacher came. The day wasn't important to them. The preacher and the preaching of the Word of God was. There is no command in the Bible given as to what day of the week we are to assemble and worship--not a command.
    As I pointed out to you, the early Christians did it every day.
     
  16. billwald

    billwald
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    The OT reports that on at least on occasion the sun stood still for half a day. If so, then half of the first day of the week is not on the first day of the week but we don't know which half.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    Fine, this is your negation of my statement,
    It is no “Greek term” which in Matthew 28:1 is “translated "dawn"” in the KJV; it is the PHRASE, ‘eis mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’- “TOWARDS the First Day of the week”,
    which I made in reply to your statement,
    Matthew 28:1 and the Greek term translated "dawn" can mean at the rising of the Sun because the term literally means "light growing" not light "decreasing….” ‘epiphohskousehi’— (with “the Greek term” ‘tehi’, its Article).

    So we find translated in the KJV— according to Dr Walter,
    ‘opse de sabbatohn’= “Late in the Sabbath”;
    ‘tehi epiphohskousehi’= “as it began to dawn towards”;
    ‘mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn’= “the First Day of the week”.
    Fine…. Then “the Greek term” ‘eis’= ?.... Then “the Greek term” ‘eis’ is not translated at all!

    Or, Dr Walter’s alternative was, to translate “the Greek term” ‘eis’ and its accompanying Accusative, with the concept of “in”!

    Now, Dr Walter, please explain the Greek grammar and syntax for doing THAT!
     
    #17 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 14, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2010
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    DHK, the New Testament Sabbath is from the New Testament. That is the ONLY point I am trying to make; and that the New Testament Sabbath in the New Testament, is NOT Sunday. I have peace with the morals surrounding the issue EXACTLY FOR THE REASON PAUL GIVES IN ROMANS 14, which is, that it is not MY job, but God's.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    Does the OT (I think there were two occasions) report that the sun set twice and came up twice during that one and a half day long one day?
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:
    Dr Walter, kindly ponder your own statement here!
    Would I be lying if I said,
    "Sabbath's fullness of day,
    Sabbath's MID-AFTERNOON it being "FULL LIGHT" in day ('tehi epiphoskousehi')
    as it began to dawn towards the First Day of the week" ('eis mian sabbatohn')?


    Where is the idea of "GRADUALLY GETTING LIGHTER"? The idea cannot be accommodated ANYWHERE and in ANY WAY!
    But BOTH the idea of "Sabbath's MID-AFTERNOON it being "FULL LIGHT" in day" AND, "gradually DECLINING daylight" (both factors from 'tehi epiphoskousehi') are perfectly accommodated!

    That is what my sinner's conscience tells me and that is what I have been contending, all the while.
     
    #20 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 14, 2010
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