Matthew 7:22-23

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by JonC δοῦλος, Nov 3, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,984
    Likes Received:
    373
    Matthew 7:22-23 (NASB)
    22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

    I have read and listened to many interpretations. Some have held that these are Christians who have forfeited their salvation by practicing lawlessness. Others have said that these are people practicing other religions and come to grips with the falseness of their religion. Personally, I believe that these are professing Christians who are under the delusion that they are saved, but actually lack genuine faith.

    The reason I believe this is that these people recognize Jesus (“Lord, Lord”) as God. They appear to have been active in the work of the ministry - perhaps used by God to reach many for Christ. They have at some level bought into the Christian faith, but on a deeper level are found lacking for Christ never knew them.

    To whom do you believe this passage is directed (and why)?
     
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,386
    Likes Received:
    790
    Jesus does not say " I once knew you but you turned away from me" What he does say is "I never knew you".

    These people are not saved and have never been saved.

    And for those who believe you can lose your salvation this section of scripture gives some evidence against that since Jesus addressed those who never knew Him and He did not address those who supposedly knew Him but lost their salvation.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,984
    Likes Received:
    373
    Do you think that this verse is speaking of people who sincerely thought they were authentic in their faith?
     
  4. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe they are Lordship Salvationists.

    Note how it is emphasized they say, "Lord, Lord". Twice we are told that.

    And then look what they claim as the reason they should be saved. They prophesied in Jesus's name, they cast out devils in Jesus's name, they did many "wonderful works" in Jesus's name. They are depending on their works, on their own righteousness to save them.

    This describes Lordship Salvationists to a capital T. They mock "easy believism" where folks simply commit themselves to Jesus.

    We see the same exact thing in the parable of the Pharisee and the publican.

    Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
    10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
    11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

    Did the Pharisee believe in God? YES. Did he keep the commandments? YES. But he trusted in his own works and righteousness to save him.

    What about the publican? Why, this fellow was one of those evil "easy believism" fellas. He thought he could be saved by praying to Jesus and asking for mercy. He didn't promise to turn over a new leaf or submit to the Lordship of Christ.

    And who was forgiven?
     
    #4 Winman, Nov 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2013
  5. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,984
    Likes Received:
    373
    I don’t know that I’d narrow it down to those who believe they can be saved through works (which is what I take your description of Lordship Salvationionists to be). The bottom line is that they exhibited the acknowledgement as the publican with his cry for mercy. But Jesus was in fact not their Lord. Adherents of “easy believeism” could just as easily fall into this category. Just as these did works and acknowledged Christ as Lord, many “just believe” (cognitively) professing Christians may also believe on their own terms and in their own righteousness.

    The reason I say this is that the "Lord, Lord" was actually not a bad thing. Neither were their works. It was the foundation upon which their faith was built upon. (Mt 7:24-27).
     
    #5 JonC, Nov 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2013
  6. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I believe the answer was give in Luke 18:9.

    Luk 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

    These persons trusted in themselves. It just so happened that the Pharisee demonstrated this by boasting of his obedience, just like those lost persons in Matthew 7 that repeatedly called Jesus, "Lord, Lord" and boasted of their many good works.

    Spend 10 minutes with any Lordship Salvationist and they will gladly tell you how obedient they are to God, and how you are not. Listen to ANY Paul Washer sermon.
     
  7. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,984
    Likes Received:
    373
    I agree that the issue is people trusting in themselves. I disagree about the assessment of Matthew 7's "Lord, Lord" referring to their "lordship doctrine" and I think that the answer is provided in verses 24-27 (that immediately follow).

    The ones who built their hows on the rock were the ones who heard Christ's words and acted on them. The one's who built their house upon sand hears those words and does not act on them. The issue, IMHO, is that those in verse 22 relied on their own righteousness. They did what was right but out of their own nature. This does not mean that they shouldn't have acted, but that their actions were based on their own righteousness (the weak foundation).

    To carry this farther - look at verse 21: "NOT EVERYONE who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter." While this would exclude salvation to those who do right out of their own will even though they acknowledge Him as Lord, it also excludes those who do not say to Him "Lord, Lord."
     
  8. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Who are those who live a lifestyle of iniquity but those who are not regenerate. Only those who have been regenerated have a changed heart and are caused to walk in His ways.

    Christ really was not Lord of these people, lawlessness was their lord, they were still enslaved to sin, they practiced a lifestyle of sin, yet somehow they MAY have believed they were saved, and it is possible that someone told them they were. This group most certainly would contain those who said a sinners prayer and were then guaranteed heaven by some false preacher. These also had an outward appearance of godliness, but their lives denied the power thereof -- 2 Timothy 3:1ff.
     
    #8 preacher4truth, Nov 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2013
  9. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I would disagree with your interpretation, those who built their house on the rock were those trusting Christ alone to save them, Jesus is their foundation.

    Those who built their house on the sand are those trusting in themselves and their works to save them.

    And what was it that Jesus told people they were to do?

    Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    This is why Limited Atonement is so important, if Jesus did not die for everyone, the only thing a person can trust in to assure themselves they are saved is their works.

    Non-Cals do not believe in Limited Atonement. A non-Cal can safely rest in the fact that Jesus died for him personally, Jesus is his foundation.

    Ask any Calvinist how they know they are saved and they will go to scripture like 2 Pet 1:5-11 and give you a list of works they must do to assure themselves they are saved.

    http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/make-your-election-sure/

    Ask a non-Cal how they know they are saved and they will tell you they called on Jesus to save them as the publican did. This is why Calvinists constantly criticize non-Cals for "easy-believism".

    There ya go. Ask a Calvinist how he knows he is saved, and he will boast of his works, because that is the ONLY evidence he has.
     
    #9 Winman, Nov 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2013
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,386
    Likes Received:
    790
    I want to go on the record and say that what has been posted in this thread regarding those who hold to Lordship Salvation and about Calvinists as well is a shame.

    Both of those camps are not lost. To insinuate that they are is childish. Both of those camps are saved by the grace of God.
     
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Sadly moving this to Calvinist Forum, since some here cannot allow discussion without immediately changing it to their hobby horse. Even after thousands of posts, some should know better.

    Sigh.
     
  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,386
    Likes Received:
    790
    When you look at the pharisees and the rich young ruler what you see is the foundation that their "faith" was in what brought them glory rather than God. Take a look at the earlier part of that chapter.

    Joh 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.
    Joh 7:18 The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood.
     
  13. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is the very question. Those persons in Matthew 7 believed in Jesus, they were not atheists, they called Jesus, "Lord, Lord" repeatedly.

    Yet they were absolutely lost.
     
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,386
    Likes Received:
    790
    You need to grow up.
     
  15. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, they both boasted of their works.

    Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
    12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

    Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

    All of these persons boasted of their works. This is also what those persons in Matthew 7 boasted.

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    These persons believed in Jesus, as did the Pharisee in Luke 18, but they did not TRUST in Jesus to save them, that is an altogether different thing. They trusted in their works, not Jesus to save them.

    Again, this is the problem with Limited Atonement, it FORCES a person to rely upon their works for assurance. You can deny that all you want, but all you have to do is read Reformed writers like Sproul that I quoted, and you will see they must always resort to works as the foundation for a Reformed believer's confidence and assurance. They have to, because they have no other way to know Jesus died for them. That is exactly what John Calvin said as well.
     
  16. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Setting the record straight

    Thanks to the false teachings of winman this has gone cal/arm.

    The Calvinists (Reformed/DoG) believe works are evidence of salvation, not the cause, thus the dependence is not upon works for salvation, but upon a work of grace in the heart which is the cause of these good works.
     
  17. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    And you need to understand this is a life or death matter.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly, you believe WORKS are the evidence of your salvation. This is exactly what those persons in Matthew 7 believed, the Pharisee in Luke 18, and the young rich ruler in Matthew 19. They ALL boasted of their works as evidence of their faith.

    I do not trust my works, if I trusted my works I would be a goner for sure. I trust the promise of Jesus Christ that he died for me personally and I trust in that alone.

    You cannot do that, because you do not know who Jesus died for, and who he did not. At best you can only HOPE Jesus died for you, you can have no real confidence or faith in this, it is impossible if your doctrine is true.
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,386
    Likes Received:
    790
    1. Saying that you believe that your works are evidence of your salvation is not the same thing as as trusting in works for your salvation.

    2. The Jews of Jesus day did not, in fact, rely on their works for their salvation. They relied on the fact that they were Jews for their salvation. This is why Jesus addressed Nicodemus the way He did.

    3. It is obvious from some of the posts in this thread that one can become so against a particular doctrine or theological camp that they lose sight of reality. Obsession is not a good thing especially when it is against something.
     
  20. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    A distinction without a difference.

    Well, those persons in Matthew 7, the Pharisee in Luke 18, and the young rich ruler in Matthew 19 all boasted of their works, none boasted they were Jews.

    I am against false doctrine, and the scriptures command us to CONTEND for the faith. I would be disobedient to God if I did not oppose Calvinism.

    Believe me, I get tired of arguing with you guys. But I would not be a good Christian if I did not challenge this doctrine and show from scripture why it is wrong.

    If you want to believe Calvinism, that is your choice, but I will oppose it because there might be one person who recovers themselves from this false doctrine.

    2 Tim 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
    25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    I freely admit my shortcoming is patience and meekness, I have a difficult time with obstinate people.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...