ME (Millennial Exclusion) Posts

Discussion in '2008 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Jul 6, 2007.

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  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    I decide to start new topic. Because, Lacy oftens discuss on millennial kingdom at other topic thread. He oftens say of 'kingdom' means millennium. He needs to prove a verse saying 'kingdom' means a thousand years in the Bible.

    Nee, Whipple, Faust and others who teaching on millennial exclusion, these are unbiblical, and these are filled of theology and philosophy. I reject them.

    Early Church understood the word, 'kingdom' is from above with spiritual sense which speaks of salvation.

    Does the Bible actual saying that the 'kingdom' itself, means a thousand years? Silence.


    Where did they get the idea comes from?

    I would like to introduction three camps of millennial, what they believe:

    Premillennial: Believes there shall be literal future 1000 years reign on physical earth follow at the second coming.

    Postmillennial: Believes Church is currently revolutionizing the world into nearly perfect state, then come a very brief apostasy at the end of the age follow second coming. I believe many postmills are preterists. Mostly are full-preterists. I have no idea what Grasshopper believe about millennial position

    Amillennial: Believes Church is currently reign with Christ in heaven and on earth as the church carrys the gospel over the world since Calvary and will be completed follow at the second coming. Even, believe sin is still existing over the world, as the apostasy becomes worst climax toward second coming

    About 80 to 90% of premills are pretrib/disp so far I am aware of. About 95% of Independent Fundamental Baptists in America are premill.

    There are about 50% of premills are postrib in America.

    100% of amills are all postrib.

    100% of postmills are postrib.

    But, I would like to tell you something on preterism. There are two groups of preterism. Partial preterism believe Matthew chapter 24 mostly are already fulfilled in 70 A.D. but, believe literal future physical second coming of Christ. Full preterism believes everything in the Bible, included Matthew 24 are ALL fulfilled in 70 A.D. they believe second coming already occured in 70 A.D.

    There are about 70% of amills are partial preterism. About 30% of amills are full preterism.

    Myself are not partial preterial or full preterial either. But, many areas that I do agree with partial preterism on part of Matthew 24 like verse 15 was already fulfilled in 70 A.D., that, Roman army invaded Jerusalem, and destroyed Herod temple, and there was not one stone left remain, it was destroyed completed as what Christ prophesied in Matt. 24:2.

    Also, some areas, I do agree with full preterists saying Matthew 24 was already fulfilled in 70 A.D., even, I agree with full preterists saying that we are already under the new covenant because of calvary, many of O.T. prophecies were all fuflfilled focus on calvary relates with the covenant.

    I strongly disagree with full preterism, they believe second coming was already occured in 70 A.D. They deny future literal physical and visibly second coming of Christ. They interpreting verses into spiritually too much.

    Now, back to focus on millennial issue.

    Premills saying on amillennialism, itself deny future literal 1000 years which find in Revelation 20:2-7, so therefore, they deny the truth as what the Bible actual saying. Also many premills like Hal Lindsey accuse at amills, they called them, 'antiSemite' means against Jews. That is not true. So far, I am aware, NONE of amills saying that, they are against Jews.

    Many premills love Jews and even, also Israel too. That's wonderful for them. I am true that God is blessing premills for supporting Jews and Israel.

    Let you know. Pat Roberson is postrib, but, he is premill. He loves Jews so much, and focus on Israel.

    I do have Jew friends, I never stab their back. I respect them well. Even, they are my brothers in Christ.

    There is much misunderstanding within premill camp's view toward amillennialism, what they actual believe.

    Firstly, I want to tell you something on the common things what both premill and amill are agree on:

    1. Christ died on the cross for our sins
    2. Christ came to earth to died on the cross was the first advent
    3. Apostasy become worst over the world for a long time throughout this present age
    4. We shall be raptured
    5. Jesus is coming again
    6. There shall be literal phsyical resurrection of the saints' body
    7. We all shall face the judgment seat of Christ
    8. We all shall reign with Christ on earth - phyiscally and literal
    9. this present old planet earth shall be destroyed physically(full preterism believes it already occured in 70 A.D. OH PLEASE!!! :rolleyes: )
    10. God will create new heavens and new earth literally and phsyically
    11. We shall reign with Christ on new earth forever and ever

    So far, I know what things both premills and amills are having the common things, they are agree same.

    But, premills and amills both have different understanding on 'Israel' relates with God's program.

    About over 90% of premills are dispensationalism. Most amills are not dispensationalism. Many amills are covenant theology. I agree with covenant theology, but not neccesscary for me being be covenant theology. I understand clear what the Bible teaching us as what God have planning for us and the purpose of Calvary, what it is all about.

    So far, this is the first post, I make an introduction on millennial. Next post, I will discuss on verses which, speak of 'thousand', what these are talking about. The reason is, I want all of you to understand Revelation chapter 20 more clear.

    To be Continued....

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    To be Continued...

    Premills always emphasis upon Revelation chapter 20 telling us, there will be literal 1000 years reign, because these verses saying so. Premills accuse at amills for being interpreting Revelation 20 into spiritualising. However, when a person takes time to carefully analyse the beliefs, writings of Premillennialism, one find that there is complete scriptural silence to support their idea of a literal 1,000 years kingdom on earth after the one final future coming of Christ. Amills simply view it as symbolic as it is located in abook that is depth in metaphorical details and symbolic numbers. And what's more? No where in Scriptures does it teach such a literal period, therefore Amills allow scripture intepret this much debated passage, rather than doing guesswork as to its meaning.

    I read at other forum, an amill quoted amill author's comment.

    John Metcalfe said in relation to the Bible's use of the phase:

    He continues:

    He was right.

    Nowhere in the Old testament to find the slightest hint to a 1,000-year earthly kingdom. And what's more? There is no proof of hint find anywhere in the Bible telling us, that there shall the survival of the wicked beyond the all-comsummating second advent. And what's more? surely it is a lacking information to give the figure of 1000 years a literal meaning when almost every other figure in the book of Revelation carries a symbolic meaning. The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers such as 2, 3 1/2, 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 24, 42, 666, 1000, 1260, 1600, 7000, 12,000, 144,000, 200,000,000

    The Bible student must carefully note:

    Number of passages in the Bible mentioning a 1000-year reign = 1
    Number of passages in the Bible mentioning a 1000-year on this earth = 0
    Number of passages in the Bible mentioning a 1000-year reign of the natural Jews on this earth = 0

    Author Harold Hazelip said in his book, 'Revelation and the millennium',
    Premills doing their guesswork by interpreting scriptures in the Bible, not just only in Revelation, make their intepreting look difficults and flaws, whilst throughout in the Bible saying nothing anything mentioned on 1,000 years.

    Dr. Stephen Travis said in his book, 'The Jesus Hope',
    We have to studying the number 1,000, also, we will study the number 10,000 as both are mentioned in a very similar figurative manner throughout Scripture. Including both in our study show the illustrate the symbolic nature of the number 1000.

    The first time the term, 'a thousand' is mentioned ina figurative sense in Scripture is found in Deuteronomy 1:10-11: "The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude. (The Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!)."

    This passage telling us, the number of a thousand is not an exactly or specific, but itself explains in a figurative sense the deep sense of spiritual increase of blessings from God toward Israel with no limited.

    Psalams 119:72 says: "The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.". This passage telling us, The word of God is so richer than everything of the world like, gold, silver, dollar, money, etc. Likewise, Christ tells us in Mark 8:36-37, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

    I better stop now, because this post is long already. So, I will continue to type another post with scriptures on 'a thousand'.

    To be continued....

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #2 DeafPosttrib, Jul 7, 2007
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  3. DeafPosttrib

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    To be continued...

    Isaiah 7:22-24 say: "color=red]And it shall come to pass, for the abundance of milk that they shall give he shall eat butter: for butter and honey shall every one eat that is left in the land. And it shall come to pass in that day, that every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings[/color]or, for the price of a thousand bits of silver), it shall even be for briers and thorns."

    The word, 'thousand' of this verse used as a symbol (rather than an exact amount) to impress a scripture truth, it warns a seriously consequence of disobedience- briers and thorns would devour the many fruitful vines.

    Deuteronomy 7:9 says, "Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations."

    If supposed this verse telling us that a thousand generations is a literal exact or specific numbers of generations. So, that means a generation equals around 40 years. 1000 generations multiple 40 years total is 40,000 years. Many of us as Christians who believe in creation than evolutionism, this planet earth is only around 6,000 years old. Deuteronomy was written by Moses, only about 2000 years later after creation, also, about 600 to 700 years after God gaven promise to Abraham.

    Does Deut. 7:9 tells of 'a thousand generations', the specific or exact numbers of generations? No. This verse shows us, that God gaves the commandments to multitude generations, not just for only Old Testament saints, also, include New Testament saints, throughout all ages till the end of this present age.

    Notice in Psalms 119:90 says, "Thy faithfulfness is unto ALL generations." This verse speaks of God's faithfulness toward unto all ages of the saints from O.T. to N.T. period.

    Psalams 89:4 says, "Thy seed will I establish FOR EVER, and build up thy throne to ALL generations."

    This verse shows us of a thousand generations is clearly used as a figure or symbol to represent ALL generations, no doubt, it cannot be limited to, or specifically relate to, a fixed number.

    Judges 15:14-16 "And when he came unto Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him: and the Spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that were upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands. And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith. And Samson said, with the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an ass have I slain a thousand men."

    Here this passage telling very clear, the numbers of men were killed are not determined and specifically. In a more general way to express a large amount. More than likely the two refernces to "a thousand" are to indicate the idea of a large amount. It tells us, probably Samson killed men could be over 2,000 or more.

    David declared in Psalams 3:6, "I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set themselves against me round about."

    Ten thousands in this passage is used as a popular biblical multiple in a sense as the number a thousand as innumberable. Ths passage telling us, David tells us, he is not afriad of multiply people who are against him, because he is on God's side.

    In Revelation 5:11 tells us the numbers are symbolic. It saying: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was [irl]ten thousand[/url] times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.[/color]"

    This passage showing us very clear, there is no man count count the number of the crowd around the throne of God in heaven. There are great multitude around the throne of God. It could be over millions and millions in the heaven.

    Stop for now. I need rest and sleep, it is now past 4:30 am. I will continued discuss on millennium with verses later today.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    Does the second advent occur before the new Heavens and Earth are created or after?
     
  5. PrmtvBptst1832

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    Grasshopper,

    It seems that the new heaven and the new earth and the new Jerusalem John saw coming down from God out of heaven refer to the new covenant and the kingdom of God (cf. Hebrews 12:25-29).

    "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, God and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." (Revelation 20:9)

    The "beloved city" seems to be a reference to the new Jerusalem, which John sees coming down from God out of heaven. Revelation 21 and 22, then, is a further commentary on "the thousand years" mentioned in Revelation 20. Because at the end of the thousand years, the new Jerusalem has already descended. Remember Revelation 19:7? "the marriage of the Lamb has come" "his wife hath made herself ready?" This is when the new Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven, as it were, when the fabric of the old covenant which was waxing old and was ready to vanish away was done away with. When old Jerusalem was destroyed. "Here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come." These are present spiritual realities for God'e elect. We are living in the thousand years...Christ is reigning till He puts all enemies under His feet...the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. At the end of the thousand years, the nations come against the beloved city and fire from God out of heaven destroys them. Then, we see the resurrection of dead and eternal judgment. Hope this helps.
     
  6. James_Newman

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    DPT, that is an interesting analysis of the number 1000. However, it doesn't prove anything. For all the instances where you claim thousand is figurative, there are probably just as many instances where it is literal.

    Genesis 20:16
    16 And unto Sarah he said, Behold, I have given thy brother a thousand pieces of silver: behold, he is to thee a covering of the eyes, unto all that are with thee, and with all other: thus she was reproved.

    Numbers 31:4-5
    4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
    5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.


    Numbers 35:4
    4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.

    I really hoped you had a better argument than that.
     
  7. fear of the lord

    fear of the lord
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    2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
    2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    He tells the godly that God's long patience will hasten their repentance
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    What is the context here?It is judgement while verses 4-7 give us insight in to the restoration of Earth in Gen 1:2-2:1 which is often taught as creation. For this they willingly forget(who has forgotten Noahs' flood)that the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water,by which the world that then existed perished being flooded with water.There was a flood where the heavens and earth perished and its found in Gen 1:22 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


    Now why does Peter after giving this over view of restoration and judgment of both the Earth and the ungodly tell us to mindful of this one thing?
    How old does the scriptures tell us the restored Earth is?Maybe around 6000 years?Thats six days to the Lord what is he going to do on the seventh day?


    Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
    2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them(Israel): but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
    3 For we which have believed do enter into rest(promised land), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
    4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
    5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.(kingdom reign of Christ)
    6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
    7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
    9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    1Cor15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under.



    Most every believe will knows that we are nearing the end what most don't know is that we're near the end of the sixth day and that some believes will enter the rest which is the seventh millennium.
     
  8. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Grasshopper,

    I am back.

    Absolutely! The Bible have the answer for your question.

    2 Peter 3:10-13 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be BURNED UP. Seeing then that ALL THESE THINGS shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness. LOOKING FOR AND HASTING unto the COMING OF THE DAY OF GOD. Wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, LOOK FOR new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

    This passage telling us very clear, when the Lord shall come at the second advent, heavens and a earth, everything all shall be burned up.

    Same with the lesson of the flood of Genesis chapter 7. God told Noah of Gen. 6:7, He shall destroy people over the whole world with flood, also, in Gen. 6:17 tells us, everything were destroyed, even, all flesh(people) were all killed in flood.

    This was not 'spiritualise', it was occured actual and phsyical.

    God already destroyed the whole earth with flood, killed all people, and animals too.

    Only 8 people were saved in the Ark- righteousness.

    In Matt. 24:37-39 telling us, in the days of Noah were happened, flood came and destroyed all humans, SO likewise shall be at the coming of Christ shall be.

    Old heavens and old planet earth, all will be destroyed physically and literally, not spiritualise as what full-preterism claims of year 70 A.D.

    There will be no another second chance for unrighteous people to be survived beyond the day of the Lord. All unrighteousness will be destroyed at the second coming by fire. Only righteousness remain shall inherit eternal life with Christ on new earth and new heavens after the second advent.

    The Bible teaching us very clear. Right now, we are seeing both unrighteous and righteous are growing together over the world according to Matt. 13:30; 37-43, when Christ shall come with his angels, angels will gathering over the world, separate unrighteous from righteous, all unrighteous shall be cast away into the lake of fire. (please read Matthew 25:31-46).

    We know that the day of the Lord is not yet occured, because we can easily see sinners are among with Christians over the world. So, therefore, full-preterism teaching is fallacy and heresy. Because it deny future literal phsyical events - second advent and the judgment day. Itself is just explaining into spiritualise too much, it is dangerous to doing, which is against God's Word.

    By the way, I do believe the events of 70 A.D. happened literally, but, these have do nothing with second advent, it relates with physical building of the temple in Jerusalem, and ended the old covenant or testament. Now, we are in the new testament. Yet, we are in currently this age. This age will be end follow at the coming of Christ. Then, the next age to come is eternality.

    Next post, I will explain on 'this age & next age to come' with scriptures.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
    #8 DeafPosttrib, Jul 13, 2007
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  9. DeafPosttrib

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    fear of the lord,

    I heard this theory many times. The Bible doesn't give us any hint when the Lord shall come. Bible tells us, no man knows the day and hour, only God, the Father knows.

    I do BELIEVE this old planet earth, itself is approximately around 6,000 years old. Because, the history of the Old Testament books telling us, how many years between from the descendants of Adam to Christ. We can figure out by count how many years run from Adam to Christ by study in Genesis and Exodus, even, you can find them throughout books in the O.T.

    But, we do not know the EXACTLY year of B.C., when the world was created.

    I do not believe this planet earth is actual over millions of years according to evolutionism's teaching.

    We do know that Christ was born approximately 2,000 years ago, because of what the church histroy telling us so.

    But, we do NOT know what the exactly of day and hour, when Christ comes, only God, the Father knows.

    Probably, Christ shall not come till year 3000 A.D.?

    In 2 Peter 3:3-4 saying, "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of his coming?' for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

    For through many centuries, many people often heard the gospel saying that the end of the world is coming, Jesus is coming. Many people were expecting that it would occur during in their lifetime. But, it didn't happened. Many people stopped believing the gospel. And they make mocking at God for junk story.

    Same with the days of Noah. Noah warned people, the flood shall come to deestroy the world. I am sure that, people were mocked at him, made fun on him. They think, he is fool. He builted a huge wood boat on the dry land. They think, he's nut. For past about three generations since, they first heard rumours of flood, and Noah, but, nothing was happen to their lifetime. They thought the flood would NEVER be happen.

    But, when the flood suddenly came and took them all so immediately. This was the type of "thief in the night", it shall be same at the coming of Christ.

    We do not know when Christ shall come, we can do is be ready and watch. Being watch, doesn't mean that we are watching up in the sky for the signs of his coming. Watch means be alert of our spiritual life.

    Two things must come to pass first before the day of the Lorc come- 1. apostasy, and the revealed of Antichrist - 2 Thess. 2:1-4. And we shall know the immenint coming of Christ follow these events.

    Also, we do not count either 3/12 year or 7 years toward second advent, as many pretribs accuse toward on posttribs. So far, I know, NONE of posttrib claiming, know the exactly date of Christ's coming.

    I do strong feeling that the coming of Christ is close. Because, we already seeing the signs of apostasy is everywhere over the world are worst. Know we are in the last days. But, we do not know when Christ comes, we can just be watch and ready. SO, we shall not be catch as 'thief'. These who are not watch and ready, while remain walking in the dark(sins), shall be catch as thief, then they shall be cast away into the fire at Christ's coming.

    That why, we ought always be watch and be ready all the times, no matter what happen to us.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. Grasshopper

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    2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

    Yet it wasn’t the physical earth and heavens that perished was it?



    One doesn’t have to be a full-preterist to understand the Hebrew idioms:

    Sir Isaac Newton
    "The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

    The great Puritan John Owen:

    'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
    ' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
    'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

    John Lightfoot:

    "That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deut. 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.' Jer. 4:23; 'I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light,' &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isa. 65:17; 'Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered,' &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Cor. 5:17, &c. (vol. 2, pp. 18-19)
    "With the same reference it is, that the times and state of things immediately following the destruction of Jerusalem are called 'a new creation,' new heavens,' and 'a new earth.' When should that be? Read the whole chapter; and you will find the Jews rejected and cut off; and from that time is that new creation of the evangelical world among the Gentiles.
    Compare 2 Cor. 5:17 and Rev. 21:1,2; where, the old Jerusalem being cut off and destroyed, a new one succeeds; and new heavens and a new earth are created.
    2 Peter 3:13: 'We, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth.' The heaven and the earth of the Jewish church and commonwealth must be all on fire, and the Mosaic elements burnt up; but we, according to the promise made to us by Isaiah the prophet, when all these are consumed, look for the new creation of the evangelical state" (vol. 3, p.453)
    "That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper
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    Yet Peter spoke of a New Heavens and new Earth that the Prophets spoke of:


    2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Yet in the New Heavens and New Earth that Isaiah spoke of there exists death, sin and curses:

    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.



    Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
    Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    1.Who are the those described in verse 15 and where are they?
    2.What is this city in verse 14 are they invited to enter?
    3.Isn’t the water of life, found in verse 17 that men are invited to take, the same as found in verse 1&2?

    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.



    Ah yes, the ole “heresy” charge. One man’s heresy is another mans orthodoxy.


    Ever read Paul?



    Yes, it ended the age the Disciples were asking about:

    Mat 24:3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'




    As it was in the 1st century, that was what the Judaizers were doing. They were causing Jewish Christians to fall away back into Judaism.



    The writer of Hebrews also was living in the last days:

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    Do you live in the same last days that the writer of Hebrews did?
     
  12. DQuixote

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    I gotta hand it to you, DPT. You lay it all out! :type:

    Right or wrong, you put it all "out there"!!

    :wavey:
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Yes, I do.

    The "last days" began the day of Pentacost
    which I believe to have been in 33AD (see Acts 2:17
    and context).

    IMHO the last days end (AKA: time of the gentiles
    /check it out for yourself/ ) end at the pretribulation
    rapture of the Church Age saints (only).
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    Grasshopper,

    Forget commentators, you have to take heed and listen what God's Word actual saying than listening to men's philosophy of Colossians 2:8.

    In 2 Timothy 3:1-7 prophecied in the last days, there shall be perilous times. Even, it was already happened in the First Century. But, it was not stop there. Today, we still seeing there are so many perilous everything where over the world - wars, famines, pestliences, etc. There are no real peace within unbelievers, because they are without have Christ.

    In 1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, EVEN NOW are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

    It already happening in the First Century. But, it was not finish yet, even, today, we are seeing there are too many antichrists out there everywhere.

    Antichrist means, a person who deny Christ came in flesh that, He is God.

    We are still in last days since Early Church. Last days have been lasting for almost 2,000 years. But, the 'LAST DAY' of the 'last days' John 6:39,40,44,54 will be finished when Jesus Christ shall be appearing in the sky with his angels. It shall be visibly and physical.

    Right now, we are still in the last days', because there are still wicked out there in the world everywhere, and more people are born, as the world population is continuing expanding reaching toward 7 billion. That why, we are still continue carry the gospel over the world.

    When, once Lord comes, then no more children to be born, as we all shall become immortal be like as angels in the next age to come according to Luke 20:35-36. Notice Luke 20:34 telling us, "And Jesus answering said unto them, 'The children of THIS WORLD marry, and are given in marriage:" Notice it says, 'this world' is speak of present age, that people are marrying, producing more children, because thet are still flesh and mortal. BUT, in Luke 20:35-36 say: "BUT they which SHALL BE accounted to obtain THAT WORLD, and the resurrection from the dead, NEITHER marry, NOR are given in marriage: NEITHER can they die any more(Why? Because-) FOR they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, BEING the children of the resurrection."

    Notice it says, "that world" is speak of the next age to come is future follow at the second advent, which is eternality, NOT so called, 'millennial kingdom', because, Christ never, never mentioned 'a thousand years' anywhere in the four gospels.

    Right now, we are seeing people are getting married, producing more children, are dying daily.

    But, in the next age to come by follow at the coming of Christ, there shall be NO MORE marry, NO MORE given marriage, NO MORE producing children. Because they(truly faithful servants) shall receive their immotality body at Lord's coming according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, to be like Christ's. That mean, we as faithful servants shall receive new glorifiy body and become immortality, so, we shall NEVER, NEVER die again anymore forever and ever! Amen! Praise the Lord!

    By the way, premillennialism teaches, there shall be repopulation of the world beyond after the second advent during millennial kingdom. They believe there shall be more child to be born to reproducing the world again during millennial kingdom. I know why they teaching it. Because they quoted from Isaiah 65:20 to support their teaching. They interpreting "for the child shall die AN HUNDRED YEARS OLD; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." They intepreting it literally. They saying that, there shall be life length during millennial kingdom, so, they shall die during millennial.

    They misinterpreting what Isaiah 65:20 actual saying.

    First of all, the context of Isaiah 65:17-20 say nothing of 'a thousand years'. Perfectly, Revelation 21:1-4 are fit with Isaiah 65:17-20, both are speak of future eternality conditional. Isaiah 65:17-20 will be fulfilled by follow at the coming of Christ according 2 Peter 3:10-13.

    Notice Isa. 65:18 says, "But be ye glad and rejoice FOR EVER in that which I create: for behold, I create Jersualem a rejocing, and her people a joy."

    Notice, it says, 'Jerusalem', it doesn't mean that it speaks of future phsyical restoration ethinic tiny nation - Israel as Jeiwsh nation. It speaks of New Jersualem, which it speaks of US as Church in Galatians 4:26 -"But Jerusalem which is ABOVE(in heaven) is free, which is the mother of US ALL."

    So, therefore, Isa. 65:18 speaks of God's people(saints) apply to us as faithful servants.

    Notice Isa. 65:19 is very clear speak of future perfect eternality conditional, there shall be NO MORE weeping, NO MORE pain, etc. Isa. 65:19 is perfectly fit with Rev. 21:4 says, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, (pause for moment hold this verse....)

    Premills emphasis on Isa. 65:20 telling us, that a person shall born during millennial kingdom, and shall live longer up to around age 100 and shall die during millennial period. The problem is, this verse say NOTHING of 'a thousand years'. Neither in Revelation chapter 21 saying of 'a thousand years'.

    Premills seem often accuse or criticize on amills for deny Isa. 65:20 speaks of literal. That is not true. Amills understand Isa. 65:20 so clear, as it speak of future eternality perfect condition, because, they know Isa. 65:20 is very clearly fit or refer to Rev. 21:4 speaks of future perfect eternality conditional.

    Let's read Isa. 65:20 say; "There shall be NO MORE thence an infant of days, NOR an old man that hath not filled days:" Pause for a moment. Do you actual understand what Isa. 65:20a talking about? Does this verse telling us it speaks of being mortal living? Nope. Isa. 65:20a talks about immortality, means, there shall be NO MORE dying!!! No question, Isa. 65:20 is refer with Rev. 21:4 speaks, "and there shall be NO MORE DEATH... pause for a moment. Do you actual understand what it means? It speaks clearly mean immortality. It tells us, there shall be no more dying again for ever and ever. It finds in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 telling us, when at the last trumpet being blown, we all shall be changed into immortality same as find in 1 Thess. 4:15-18. So, we all shall be like angels and also be like Christ's!(1 John 3:2).

    So, clear, in Isa. 65:20a is speak of future faithful servants shall be immortality, they all shall never, never die again forever and ever.

    Finally, let's discuss on Isa. 65:20b. Let's look at Isa. 65:20b says: "For the child shall die an hundred years old; (why? Because of...) BUT the sinner being an hundred years old shall be ACCURSED."

    This is not speak of apply to a faithful servant, but, it apply to "sinner" as unjust. It means that, a sinner 'being' "an hundred years old" shall be what? - ACCURSED. Accursed means, doomed or punishment.

    Ok, if you think Isa. 65:17-20 seemly speak of millennial period. How about in Isaiah 66:22-24? Notice verse 22 says, "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall REMAIN before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name REMAIN." It speaks of future eternality without end. It doesn't saying, 'a thousand years'.

    Isa. 66:23 - "And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD."

    Does this verse telling us of millennial period? Silence. Why? Because this verse doesn't saying, 'a thousand years'.

    Also, notice, it says, ' one new moon'. This seemly possible mean temporialy (short) time. But, it says, 'NEW moon'. So, no question, it speaks of new heavens. It must be relate to future eternality age according to 2 Peter 3:10-13 & Rev. 21:1-4. How about 'sabbath' of Isaiah 66:23? Ok, does it actual saying of the 'seventh day'? Silence. I understand it, which speak of future perfect peace and REST in Christ.

    What about 'shall all FLESH come in worship before me"?

    I know what premills are trying telling us, this verse is prove us, that sinners shall be survived past great tribulation period, and shall enter into millennial kingdom, to worship the King(Christ). Does this actual saying it? Silence.

    There are several different means of 'flesh'.

    The best definition of flesh of Isa. 66:23 simple means people or person. NOT sin.

    I understand Isa. 66:23 telling us, all truly faithful servants (just) will worship before Christ during eternality age. This is not speak toward to sinners or unbelievers, only apply to faithful servants. Why?

    Let's read Isa. 66:24 says: "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men THAT HAVE TRANSGRESSED against me: for their worm shall NOT DIE, NEITHER shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be an ABHORRING."

    Whose are 'they' of verse 24? Sinners? No. 'They', which is speak of faithful servants of above verse - Isa. 66:23. That means, we will see unbelievers shall suffering in the lake of fire.

    Notice two things of verse 24: 1. their worm shall not die 2. fire shall not be quenched. Do you know where reference verse of Isa. 66:24 is? It refers to Mark 9:44,46, 48.

    Clear, Isa. 66:24 is speak of the lake of fire!

    Word, 'abhorring', means, punishment or judged.

    So, therefore, Isa. 66:24 is not speak of temporary as what "millennial exclusion" teaching. That why I strongly disagree with it. There is NO purgatory find in the Bible!

    Once, Christ comes at the end of this present age, there shall be NO another second chance for people, who currently continue remain in sins without repentance, shall go straight to everlasting fire - the lake of fire. Please read Matthew 25:31-46.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer
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    Quote: Yet in the New Heavens and New Earth that Isaiah spoke of there exists death, sin and curses . . .

    Only if you view the new creation to be a finished work. I understand the new creation to be a work-in-progress . . .


    Pilgrimer
     
  16. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Pilgrimer,

    Glad that, you are just join Baptistboard with us. You say,

    Notice Isaiah 65:21-22 says, "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them, and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

    This passage seem talk about during millennial kingdom. But, it says nothing 'a thousand years'.

    I believe there will be lot of activities during eternality age on the new earth. We will not just standing on the clouds(heaven), sing the songs, praising, worshipping the King, chatting each others. We will doing something lot of things to do on new earth. There will not be boring. WHILE eternality age, all unjust people will continue tornmenting in the lake of fire forever and ever, there will be no rest for them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  17. EdSutton

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    I'm not Grasshopper, and I admit to being a little slow on the uptake at times, but how is it that 'Pre-millenialism' (and I presume 'Post-millenialism' as well) is "men's philosophy" and 'A-Millenialism' is not? I also think you believe that 'Preterism' and I assume, 'Historical millenialism' are "men's philosophies" as well.

    I just think, in that vein, that that is an extremely pejorative statement.

    Ed
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother EdSutton -- Preach it! :thumbs:

    If Brother Grasshopper does
    "Forget commentators" he will be
    condemned for making up his own
    eschatological theology (AKA: eschatology) ;)
     
    #18 Ed Edwards, Jul 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2007
  19. Pilgrimer

    Pilgrimer
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  20. DeafPosttrib

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    Grasshopper,

    You ask me of questions on Rev. 22:14-17.

    1. who are the those described in verse 15 and where are they?

    Verse 15 speaks of unjust, because their names are not found written in the book of life, shall be cast into the lake of fire -Rev. 20:14-15, also, see Rev. 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, amd murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    Notice Rev. 22:15 says, "For WITHOUT..." It tells us, there will be NO unjust person to enter into New Jerusalem, nor dwell on new earth with Christ. You ask me where they are. They will be IN the lake of fire outside of God's place somewhere. It speaks of eternality punishment and seaparated from God.

    2. what is this city in verse 14 are they invited to enter?

    God's home, where He dwells. They are invited to enter into, these who DO His commandments, shall have eternal life with Christ. If they do not keep His commandments, shall not have eternal life with Christ. Rev. 22:14 is written apply to the faithful servants who DO His commandments, shall have eternal life with Christ.

    3. Isn't the water of life, found in verse 17 that men are invited to take, the same as found in verse 1 & 2 (Rev. 22:1-2)

    Ok, Rev. 22:17 could apply to any individual of today. It speaks of God's invitation of salvation to everyone. Same with John chapter 4. Jesus Christ is the water of life. Christ asked her, if anyone thrist, ask Him for giving the water of life, which speak of eternal life-salvation. That is invitation. Christ doesn't force us for salvation and decision. OUr choice with decision, if desire come to Christ, and then shall have eternal life. OR, if do not want Christ, and go in our own way, then shall not have eternal life, shall go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire.

    Notice the context of Rev. 22:16-19 talking about warning, giving us choices with our decisions. Obivously, this passage is matter of salvation.

    You ask me is water of life(Rev. 22:17) the same one as find in Rev. 22:1-2.

    Yes.

    Understand, Christ have many names, like the bread, the living water, the door, etc. He have many characters, who he is.

    I do believe Rev. 22:1-2 telling us the water of life flowing down from the throne of God, flowing down as it is the river through New Jerusalem, trees, and even throughout new earth, itself is literal and physical. It will be happen during eternality age in the future after the second advent.

    New Jerusalem and new earth is FOR faithful servants only, if their names are written found in the book of life. IF anyone their names is NOT found written in the book of life, CANNOT ENTER INTO the kingdom of God, cast away into the everlasting fire - lake of the fire, it is their final future eternality punishment place-destiny.

    There will be NO ANOTHER second chance for any person to have opporunity for their own salvation when once Jesus Christ comes with his agels at the second coming. it will be too late for them, because they did not watch and read, while they are remain in their dark, without repentance of sins.

    You better read Matthew 25:1-13 and Matthew 25:31-46 both speaking very clear to us, what will be happen to two groups- just and unjust at Christ's coming.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
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