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ME (Millennial Exclusion) Posts

Discussion in '2008 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Jul 6, 2007.

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  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I still want to discuss on Revelation 20:1-7 relate with 'a thousand years'. I am not yet discuss on it. I am not going to avoid it. I promise I will post and discuss on Rev. 20:11-15 tomorrow. Because, I have to work 3rd shift tonight.

    But, first, I need to show few verses on 'thousand' before start to discuss on Rev. 20:11-15.

    By the way, James Newman, you show me, of verse speaks of thousand - literal exactly number.

    I do not deny verse as you show it to me. Many verses mentioned on the numbers, which are literal. Because these showing us, there were facts and records what has already happened, these were physical, not spiritually. I do believe these verses speak of numbers as literal exact counted, because of it already recorded as history.

    But, when come to verses, which speak of 'thousand', we have to determine, tell which one is figurative or literal.

    For example - Psalms 50:10 says: "For every of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills." If suppose, we intepret this verse telling us that, the cattle are on literal exact 1000 hills. Then, God is limited. We should not limited God. God is everything.

    Isn't God owns 1001 hills?

    This verse shows us that, God owns ALL hills over earth. There are thousands, and thousands of hills over earth.

    Please read context of Psa. 50:10-11 say: "For EVERY beast of the forest is MINE, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know ALL the fowls of the mountians: and the wild beasts of the field are MINE."

    This passage tells us, God owns EVERYTHING, because he created them.

    So, the cattle upon a thousand hills showing us, that there is a largely number of hills, that God owns all hills over the world. There are thousands, and thousands of hills over the world. No way that, we can count them.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    By the way, recent, I was looking verse in Psalms, which is speak of the cattle upon a thousand hills today. I do memorize many verses well.

    But, somehow, today when I looking verse in Psalms chapter 50, several verses caught my eyes, that I never thought of them before. I would like to show you verses in Psalms chapter 50.

    Psalms 50:3 - "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence(obivously, full-preterism doctrine is false, Christ didn't come in 70 A.D. because it was not a noisy coming. Sorry) a FIRE shall deovour before him, and it shall be very tempestous round about him."

    Psalms 50:4 "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people."

    Psalms 50:5 "GATHER MY SAINTS TOGETHER UNTO ME; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice."

    Psalms 50:3-5 showing us very clear talking about second advent. Even, it tells us, Christ shall come again - ONCE, not twice according what pretribulationism teaching.

    Psalams 50:4 tells us, God shall judge the world at once, not two or three times according as what dispensationalism teaching.

    All dispensationalists are premill, mostly are pretribs. They believe there are three future judgments: 1. judgment seat of Christ for 'Church' at rapture during seven year tribulation period 2. judgment of nations for 'survive tribulation people' at second advent prior millennial 3. great white throne for 'all unjust of all ages' only at the end of millennial.

    I used to believe in three judgments as what I learned from dispensationalism doctrine whilst myself was pretrib/premill. Later, I realized, the Bible teaches us, there will be the only ONE future judgment which will be follow at the second advent.

    Psalms 50:5 tells us very clear, all saints shall be gathering together at his coming, which is speak of rapture!

    Psalms 50:5 says nothing what the timing of rapture shall be. But, use our common sense, that the saints all shall be gathering together at ONCE, not twice according what pretribs teaching.

    Psalms 50:5 is clearly refer to Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 2 Thess. 2:1.

    Probably Psalms 50:5 is the very first verse which mentioned rapture.

    But, that is not all, also, I found few passages in Psalms mentioned second coming, not long time ago. I would like to show them to you.

    Psalms 96:13 - "Before the LORD: for he COMETH, for he COME to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth."

    Clear, this verse telling us there will be only ONE future coming, not two comings as what pretrib teaching. Also, this verse telling us clear, Christ shall judge the world at ONCE, not twice or three times as what dispensationalism teaches.

    Obivously, this verse is postribulational/amill doctrine.


    Also, in Psalms 98:9 - "Before the LORD; for he COMETH TO JUDGE the earth: with righteousness shall he judge the world, and the people with equity."

    This verse telling us only ONE coming, ONE Judgment Day.

    Accept what God's Word saying, take heed and follow it.

    There's more passage in the Old Testament mentioned on second advent and judgment day.

    Daniel 7:9-14 -"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame; and his wheels as burning fire: A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: THE JUDGMENT WAS SET, AND THE BOOKS WERE OPENED.(clearly, this verse telling us, it is great white throne, which find mentioned in Rev. 20:11-15) I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.(clearly described in Rev. 19:20; and 20:10) As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall NOT pass away, and his kingdom that which shall NOT be destroyed."

    This passage is very clear telling us, Christ shall come again, he shall judge the world, and we as saints shall reign with Christ forever and ever. His kingdom is an evelasting, NOT temporary according as what milennial exclusionism teaches. Nowhere in Bible saying that the kingdom is a temporary, or so called, "millennium" as 1000 years.

    I urge you to read throughout whole context of Daniel chapter 7.

    Daniel 12:1-3 "And at that time Micheal stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivery, every one that shall be found WRITTEN IN THE BOOK.(Clearly, it speaks of great white throne follows second advent after great tribulation) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.(this is very clear speak of resurrection shall be on the last day-John 6:39,40,44, 54; and there is the only one judgment day. Some shall go into eternal life with Christ, some shall go into everlasting punishment - lake of fire) And they that be wise shall shine as the birghtness of the firmament, and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars FOR EVER AND EVER."

    Dan. 12:1-3 telling us very clear, Christ shall come again at once, He shall judge the world at once, there shall be resurrection for both just and unjust on the last day of this present age. Notice last part of Dan. 12:3 says, "for ever and ever", this doesn't saying it shall be temporary period, or so called, 'millennial'-1000 years. This telling us, saints shall reign with Christ for forever and ever without end.

    One more thing to tell you of Dan. 12:1.

    Premills intepreting, 'nation' of Dan. 12:1, they saying, this verse proved us, that there shall be restoration nation of Israel again in the last days, even, it already fulfilled in year 1948 or 1967.

    This verse of 'nation' seem telling us of a physical earthly nation - modern Israel. But, 'nation' is speak of us as we are the commonwealth of Israel(Eph. 2:12), also, we are heavenly nation in 1 Peter 2:9.

    Daniel 12:1a speaking of future persecution against Christians under Antichrist(same with in Dan. 7:25). Then, Christians shall be delivery-rapture at Christ's coming, while resurrection shall be occured at same time in 1 Thess. 4:15-17.

    Old Testament teaching us very clear that, Christ shall come again at once at the end of the age, not twice. Also, it teaches us there shall be the only ONE general judgment day for the world follow at Christ's coming - once, not two or three times according pretribulaitonism teaching.

    I will make another post, to show you passages in the New Testament prove us there will be only one future coming and one judgment day.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    See Ed’s comments.

    Please, don’t try to convince us you never read anything from the amill point of view.



    So then, you render the term “last days” as meaningless since everyone since Pentecost has lived in them. I think the term “last days” has a very specific meaning and pertains to a specific time.



    Yes, and I pointed out that according to Isaiah death, sin and curses all exist in those new Heavens and New Earth.


    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    Isa 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

    This seems to contradict your statement that I originally responded to:

    “There is no proof of hint find anywhere in the Bible telling us, that there shall the survival of the wicked beyond the all-comsummating second advent”.

    You said the New H&E occur after the Second Advent, Isaiah says death, sin and curses occur in the New H&E therefore the wicked do in fact survive beyond the Second Advent. Revelation 22:15 also confirms this.




    Bingo!!!! The New Jerusalem exists now. Welcome to the world of preterism.




    Now your back to contradictions. Is verse 19 not in the same context as verse 17 and verse 20 that speaks of death and sin?



    How do you know? Unless you read the works of men.(Col. 2:8)



    What exactly do Amills believe “shall die” to mean?

    for the child shall die an hundred years old



    Actually I do.

    Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:



    How is this different than the immortality and “never dying” the lost man receives?



    This is not speak of apply to a faithful servant, but, it apply to "sinner" as unjust. It means that, a sinner 'being' "an hundred years old" shall be what? - ACCURSED. Accursed means, doomed or punishment.


    Does the child die?


    .


    I don’t.
     
  4. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    So you say those in verse 15 are in eternal Hell. Yet then turn around and say they are invited into God’s home:

    God's home, where He dwells. They are invited to enter into”,


    Rev 22:14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;

    In order to enter the city they must first be outside the city. The city is the New Jerusalem. Yet you say the New Jerusalem doesn’t come till after the Second Advent. So will sinners be able to enter the New Jerusalem after the Second Advent? Have you thought this through?



    Bingo again!!! Are you sure you’re not a heretical preterist? And where is this river found?

    Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
    Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
    Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
    Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
    Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

    When did John say these events would occur?

    Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
    Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    Now are those the words of man?



    Once again you contradict yourself. You just said Jesus is the water of life and is available today. Why do the nations need to be healed in eternity, and what nations exist in eternity?

    and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations



    You say that the New H&E occur after the second coming yet also say those outside the New Jerusalem, that is located in the New Heavens and Earth, may come to salvation:

    “They are invited to enter into, these who DO His commandments, shall have eternal life with Christ.”

    “Ok, Rev. 22:17 could apply to any individual of today. It speaks of God's invitation of salvation to everyone”.


    CH Spurgeon:
    "Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Grasshopper,

    Right now, it is almost 9 pm (U.S. Eastern Time), not enough time for me to make post to reply back to you. I have to work 3rd shift tonight. Tomorrow, I will reply back to you about Isaiah chapter 65.

    By the way, New Jerusalem is already up there in heaven long, long time ago before New Testament period, even, before Old Testament period too. Because God is already there.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Grasshopper,

    Also, I will reply back to you on Revelation chapter 22 tomorrow.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  7. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Then why do Isaiah, Peter, and John all refer to it as a future (to them) creation? See you tommorrow.:sleeping_2:
     
  8. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    1Th 4:17 (KJV1611 Edition):
    Then we which are aliue, and remaine, shalbe
    caught vp together with them in the clouds,
    to meet the Lord in the aire:
    and so shall wee euer bee with the Lord.


    1 Thessalonians 4:17 (The Latin Vulgate, 0448 Edition):
    deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur
    simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus
    obviam Domino in aera
    et sic semper cum Domino erimus

    'rapture' is a Englishized form of the Latin word 'rapiemur'
    It is translated 'caught up' in the KJVs

    Rapture is a Biblical word - Latin Vulgate Bible, of course
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Wow, must be a long 3rd shift.
     
  10. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Ye Belong to Christ

    In Mark 9 There is a serious warning to someone. And it's not a parable.



    • Does "Ye Belong to Christ" mean that the persons he is speaking to are saved?
    • If not what does it mean?
    • Is John Included in the "Ye" (second person plural)?
    • What is the significance of interjecting reward into these scriptures?

    Who is the "Thy/Thee, 1st person singular" if not the "one who belongs to Christ?"
    Is it John (or does the text allow for someone else?)
    If John, Is he saved? (He belongs to Christ)
    If so, do the warnings in vs 42-48 apply to John?
    If the message is to unbelievers, false-professors, Jews in the trib, etc., then according to the text, how do they escape Hell?


    In Christ, Lacy
     
    #30 Lacy Evans, Aug 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  11. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    You do realize what is about to happen don't you Lacy my brother?
     
  12. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Let's look at the Strong's Concordance:
    http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

    Mark 9:41
    For 1063 whosoever 3739 302 shall give 4222 0 you 5209 a cup 4221 of water 5204 to drink 4222 in 1722 my 3450 name 3686, because 3754 ye belong 2075 to Christ 5547, verily 281 I say 3004 unto you 5213, he shall 622 0 not 3364 lose 622 his 846 reward 3408.


    (1) 'ye belong' comes from the Greek Este, the second person plural of 'to be'. It means 'ye (you) are' — "...because ye art Christ...'. The meaning would seem to be that they are members of the Spritual body of Christ (1 Cor 6:15, 12:12-27), ie, the "Spiritual Temple" of Christendom (John 2:21).

    (2) 'reward'
    comes from the Greek Misthos, meaning 'dues paid for work' — "...he shall not lose his wages". The implication seems to be that giving nourishment to the followers of Christ counts as "working for God". By doing "God's work", you earn 'wages' from Heaven.

    Note: doing "God's work" does not mean paying the Church to kiss (fake) relics of Saints. That is taking money from followers of Christ. Rather, "God's work" means giving aid and support to the followers of the Messiah.
     
  13. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Hi, Lacy.

    At first blush, I believe Jesus was directly relating this to Mt 25:31-46, the sheep and goats judgment. "Belong to Me" means justified by faith in God (in the tribulaiton, there will be believers from the left behind "church" and believers from "Israel" whose common faith is OT-style faith in God and the coming kingdom).

    Notice just preceding this is His identification of "the least of these" in Mt 25 and here -- children. And the reward?? In the MK. Notice likewise the reference of 9:42 and following to entering into the MK.

    skypair
     
  14. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Just for clarification's sake. . .Do you believe that those who are either saved during the trib or the saved who miss the firstfruits rapture (left behind church) are saved thence by the keeping of the Levitical temple rites and the Mosiac law?

    I see the parallels. And I do believe that missing the rapture is a definite possibility. I also don't contend that all who miss the rapture consequently also are excluded from the ME. But some do.

    Again, the warning here in Mark 9 is not the missing of the rapture (That's in Luke 21:36.) The warning here is Hell Fire.
     
  15. charles_creech78

    charles_creech78 New Member

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    I think he was telling them that if you see someone casting out devil in his name that you should no forbid them of doing so. To me just because someone is not fallowing you and is serving God that you should not forbid them of doing so because they are not fallowing the way you fallow Christ. I think if you read on down it said this Mr 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
     
  16. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    I certainly agree with you brother that this is the main thrust of v39!

    In Christ, lacy
     
  17. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    Well, I'll assume from the silence of the Millennial Exclusion opponents and their "inability" or "unwillingness" to answer a question or two that all are convinced that my position is true.:laugh: :laugh:

    (Adopting a little of my opponents' debate techniques.)

    'Till my change come, -lacy
     
  18. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    No. It is my understanding that the left behind church will believe just as we did but the "oil" and the "wedding door" are not open anymore. As for Israel, I believe they will "look upon Him Whom they have pierced and mourn [and convert]" about midtrib per Zech 12:10 and Joel 2. 144,000 will even be "sealed" but against death, not to the wedding. IOW, they will know the Christ we do, but again, they can only be "guests" at the wedding supper (Mt 22, Rev 19:7-9 and following) postrib on the earth.

    Good! So you can see my POV and I yours. It's about time to "unwrap the elephant," isn't it!

    So have you cut off your right hand? or plucked out your eye? cut off your foot?

    Get serious, Lacy. These are for the tribulation going into the MK. What did Jesus say would happen if they didn't feed and protect the least? HELL. That is, better to cut off your foot, hand, or eye than to offend in the trib!! You can't make these out to be a) believers and especially not b) church! You are holding on with all your might to threats that don't apply to you!

    skypair
     
    #38 skypair, Aug 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2007
  19. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans New Member

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    While I in no way take these suggestions lightly or indiscriminately write them off as figrative, I do believe that they are indeed figurative for one simple reason.

    You have another hand, eye and foot.

    I have indeed had to "cut off a hand" and "pluck out an eye" on occasion inorder to not make provision for the flesh. Christ is saying that if we indeed fear God, if we realize that we will be judged for what we built on the foundation, that we will take drastic measures to win the prize and gain the inheritance.

    lacy
     
  20. lbaker

    lbaker New Member

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    Okay, I'll take a crack at it. This is a "difficult" passage, for sure.

    Yes, it means the saved, and yes, it includes John.

    Hard to know what He means by reward. Is that a blessing in this life, even to an unbeliever, or does that mean only believers would be offering the cup of water to other believers, and so would be rewarded in Heaven???

    Definitely John in 41, also the other disciples who were present, and yes I suppose John was saved.

    The warnings in 42-48 could apply to John, and any other disciples present, but are more likely to be understood as a generic "you", meaning anyone and not just limited to John and the others.

    The words about chopping off hands and poking out eyes and the part about salt echo Matthew 5. So, it makes me wonder if John didn't do a little "cut and paste" here and just plug these remarks of Jesus into the middle of another conversation.

    If the passage refers to unbelievers, they would escape hell by being saved, same as anyone else. For believers the message appears to be don't go on sinning, and yes, this does appear to raise issues for OSAS.

    Like I said, it's a difficult passage.

    But, I still don't see any mention of 1,000 years in hell during the earthly millenial kingdom there.

    Les
     
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