Message To Bush

Discussion in '2007 Archive' started by Martin, Feb 14, 2007.

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  1. Martin

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    Bush said:

    ==I have a message for President Bush. Why don't you do our troops a big favor and bring them home? Why don't you stop asking them to die for another nation's freedoms.

    Bring the troops home Mr President! The negative results of pulling out is no excuse not to bring them home. Those negative results are the consequences of your policies!
     
  2. carpro

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    Historically, Americans have almost always died for the freedom of others.

    Our own freedom hasn't been directly threatened by a foriegn nation since the War of 1812.
     
  3. Martin

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    ==Two things.

    1. That does not make it right.

    2. If the people we are fighting for are willing to fight, in mass, for their freedoms along beside our troops that is a different matter. The Iraqis are not doing this. Their police/military is so full of tribal loyalties and terrorists that they can't be trusted.
     
  4. carpro

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    "Right" is subjective. It's been "right" numerous times in the past, but it is your subjective opinion that it is not "right" now.
     
  5. Bro. Curtis

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    Yup. My personal feeling
     
  6. Martin

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    ==Is it constitutional to be using our military to help Iraq build a democracy? If you think so please make your case.
     
  7. Daisy

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    Whose freedom are we fighting for in Afghanistan? Whose in Iraq? Whose did we in Panama?

    Pearl Harbor and 9-11 were only indirect threats?
     
    #7 Daisy, Feb 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2007
  8. carpro

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    Was it Constitutional to use our military to build a democracy in Japan?
     
  9. Pastor Larry

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    Bringing the troops home immediately is a non-starter. The terrorists desire to destabilize Iraq, wait for the lack of will on the part of America, see the troops leave, and then wreak havoc. It would be a disaster for American foreign policy and for American security.

    As for building a democracy, we did it both in Japan and Germany post WWII. One wonders if we had done it post WWI, if WWII would have been vastly different. Democracies are typically not threats to other nations.

    In addition, one could make the case that the best way to provide for the defense of our nation is to ensure that democracies increase around the world who share our values, particularly in a global age. So aiding in the building of democracies could be constitutional in this age.

    In a previous age, it would not have been necessary for defense since the hemispheres were isolated and economies were separated. We live in a different world now.
     
  10. Martin

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    ==I don't like chasing rabbits through the woods. I asked a question and I am waiting for your reply to my question.

    Is it constitutional to be using our military to help Iraq build a democracy? If you think so please make your case.
     
  11. Martin

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    ==I don't deny that any of that is true. However that is this administration's fault and our military men/women should not have to die because of this administration's continued failed policies. When we pull out, and we will, history will rightfully view Bush's policy and effort as a total failure. It will also blame him for making the Middle East worse.

    This current President is a failure.


    ==One could make that case. However there are two problems. (1) As a conservative I don't believe our military should be used for such purposes, (2) such a strategy would most likely result in our having more enemies than we already do. There is also the fact that we would need a better plan of action than this administration is capable of providing.
     
  12. Pastor Larry

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    The problem is that you don't konw any of that. You don't know the that Middle East will be worse. It is too early to tell. You don't know that it is a failed policy. So far, mistakes have been made, to be sure. But that is a far cry from failed. We will pull out, hopefully when Iraq is stable rather than cutting and running as some people whom I beleive to be misguided would have us do.

    In some ways he is; in other ways he's not. On the issue of Iraq, we likely will not know for 15-20 years.

    So how do you propose to protect America from dictators and terrorists? The easiest way is to promote democracy and aid its establishment. Very few democracies produce terrorists. As a conservative, I would like to conserve America and American values. I think the best way to do that is to help democracies prosper.

    As a conservative, I am not concerned by the number of enemies, but by the spread of the best way to live in a fallen world. I do not think it would increase our enemies. It might, in fact, increase our friends, since those who desire democracy would befriend us for helping them achieve it.

    You don't know that this administration is not capable of providing a better plan of action. They may not be, but so far, what we know is that the one they tried first didn't work, due largely to mismanagement at levels lower than the president. "Capability" is a very difficult argument to sustain. The best we can legitimately say is that what was tried so far didn't work. It says nothing about what they may be capable of doing that they decided not to do.

    Here is where I think political dislike becomes involved. Your dislike for Bush has caused you to make ill founded judgments that cannot be sustained. You may be right, but it is not because you actually know. And that is an important distinction to make. Your statements that are dogmatic, should be presented as opinions: I think this administration is incapable, etc. We must recognize that there are things we don't know.
     
    #12 Pastor Larry, Feb 14, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 14, 2007
  13. JGrubbs

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    This year will officially mean that our troops have been fighting this "war" in Iraq longer than our troops were fighting in World War II. :(
     
  14. The Galatian

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    That is the opinion of the American people.
    http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=70619

    History has shown that no matter how much a president might want a war, if the American people do not support it, it won't work.

    We had a chance to make it work, but Bush blew it. Now it's just a question of how much longer the disaster will play out.
     
  15. carpro

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    Not really. The war only lasted a few days.
     
  16. carpro

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    You have my answer. You just don't like it.
     
  17. Martin

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    ==The Middle East is already worse and, when we pull out, it will get worse. The situation in Iraq will worsen and probably spill into other countries. Our situation in the world will get more tricky and our security will have to get tighter.

    ==Uuu, four years after rolling into Baghdad it is still not secure. So you have four years (Longer than WW2) over three thousand dead soldiers, I don't know how many have been hurt, how many millions of dollars, and the capital city of the country we are "saving" is still not secure? That is a failed policy. That is the very picture of a failed policy.

    ==Thousands are dead and many more hurt because of those mistakes. Again, failed policy.

    ==O, come on! You can't believe that after four years, millions of dollars, and thousands of lives we are pulling out! That is crazy. We are pulling out because this administration failed to provide the military with a winning policy (which would have included more troops at the start).


    ==That idea sounds nice but it is hardly conservative. It is big government liberalism. We protect ourselves by building our homeland security. We don't secure ourselves by being the world's police.

    ==Since Bush started this policy the approval rating for America has dropped, worldwide.

    ==Judging from past behavior it is a safe assumption.


    ==O come on! I voted for Bush, TWICE! I have given him the benefit of the doubt at every step. However we are now at a point where reality must be faced head on. This administration has failed to do its job. I am not going to deny that, or support failed policies, just because Bush is a nice guy. My personal feelings for Bush, as a person, have zero to do with this. I rather suspect Bush and I would get along great at a personal level.
     
  18. Martin

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    ==Actually, no, you have not answered. I asked,

    "Is it constitutional to be using our military to help Iraq build a democracy? If you think so please make your case."

    I have yet to see you make constitutional case/defense for your position. I am still waiting for your answer.

    I can't dislike a answer I have not seen.
     
  19. JGrubbs

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    You can't say the war only lasted a few days, the invasion was on March 20, 2003, the First Battle of Fallujah was in April 2004, the Second Battle of Falluja was in November 2004 and in January of 2007 President Bush has called for an aditional 21,000 troops.

    As of September 29, 2006, over $379 billion has been allocated by the U.S. Congress for the Iraq war. Over $360 billion has been spent as of January 22, 2007.

    U.S. armed forces: 3,080 dead. 22,834 wounded in action.

    According to the current timeline of events, billions of dollars being spent and thousands of lives being lost, it appears that the war didn't only last a few days.
     
  20. carpro

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    I can and did. It's just as easy for me to make that assertion as it is for you to assert that it is still going on.

    It depends on your definition of "war" and "over".
     
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