Messiah was Cruficied in 37 CE

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Aug 22, 2007.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck
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    1 John the Baptist is clearly described by Josephus as having been murdered by the Jewish Priesthood in 36 CE. Josephus is consistent with Christian tradition, which places this sad event in August/September, about 6 months before the next Passover. (The Jewish leaders murdered both John the Baptist and the Messiah on major agricultural feast days whose origins clearly came from the old Canaanite religions.)

    Please see: http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/JohnTBaptist.htm
    "The Dating of John According to Josephus"


    2 The Gospels clearly indicate that the Messiah was crucified after John the Baptist's murder, during a Passover. Further, both the Gospels and secular sources confirm that the Crucifiction happened uner Pilate. Pilate was Procurator until 37 CE, when a series of disturbances in Judea forced him to be recalled to Rome, where he was executed by beheading.


    3 This leaves one option. The Messiah was crucified after John the Baptist was murdered (Sept. 36 CE) and while Pilate was still procurator (until a few months after Passover 37 CE). Thus, Jesus was crucified at Passover in 37 CE.


    4 Passover in 37 CE happened on the Ides of March, on the 15th. It was a Friday, exactly as Christian tradition teaches ("Good Friday"). (It was also the 80th anniversary of Julius' Caesar's assassination in Rome.) Moreover, exactly as Christian tradition teaches (and the Jewish Talmud records: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42290), Passover Week began at sun-down on that very Friday, so that the Crucifiction was indeed on the eve of the Passover festival. It all works out.


    5 Jesus was around 30 at the time of his crucifiction, according to Church Tradition. That means he was born around 7 AD. This is exactly the testimony of Luke 2:1-3, which ties the Messiah's birth to the Census of Quirinius, firmly dated to 9 CE. (For example, we know there were major censuses in 28 BCE, 8 BCE, and 14 CE — every 20 years. Other censuses happened every 5 years, putting Quirinius' census in 14-5=9 CE.) This means he was born, not under Herod the Great, but under Herod's son and successor, Herod Archelaus. This is not implausible, see:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Archelaus

    Archelaus was driven from power for extreme cruelty in 9 CE. (The Romans installed Quirinus as Procurator in his place, who immediately conducted the Census mentioned above.) The "Massacre of the Innocents" targeted all children ages 2 and under (Matt 2:16-18). If the Messiah was born at this time, and Herod Archelaus cruelly murdered scores of infants, this would perfectly explain why the Jews deposed Archelaus at precisely this time.

    Note: Josephus' description of the reign of Archelaus is notoriously brief in all the surviving manuscripts of Josephus. In fact, so little information is available from any Classical source for his 10 year reign (1 BC - 9 AD) that it is known as the "Dark Decade".
     
    #1 Bismarck, Aug 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2007
  2. rbell

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    I'm not sure I get the point here.

    Where did you get that Jesus was thirty at the time of His crucifixion? Most everything I've seen says 33.
     
  3. menageriekeeper

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    There also seems to be a date problem. You can't just switch between Common Era dating and Anno Domini without explaining how you arrived at the comparision dates. Old folk like myself need the education. We weren't raised CE and BCE and only have a general idea of how to translate dates between the two systems.

    But, the again, why for do we need to know the exact date of Christ's crucifixition?
     
  4. ccrobinson

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    By the Jewish Priesthood? Or by Herod, as reported in Matthew 14?
     
  5. Hope of Glory

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    It's actually important because it shows that it fulfilled prophecy and the types set forth in the feasts. I haven't read his entire article, but will do so when I have more time, but it is important.
     
  6. lbaker

    lbaker
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    Very interesting.

    Les
     
  7. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    I agree that it is very important as well as the timing of His crucifixion gives us an idea of His return according to the OT. So it's one of the pieces of the large picture of God's timeline for man.

    God is working 6,000 years and will rest on the seventh 1,000-year period (reign of Christ) and there is that rest that awaits God's people. So yes a correct understanding is critical to understanding God's timeline.

    I have recently been thinking about this in that most people hold to a 4 BC birth, which seems to coincide with a later crucifixion in that Christ would have been 40 years old (40 years being a period of completion), which seems to make more sense in light of OT types, but these are merely thoughts with no hard study put to them.
     
  8. James_Newman

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    I may be way wrong because I don't go to skool anymore, but BC/AD and BCE/CE are just different names for the same thing. Secular authorities changed to CE because they don't like what AD stands for.
     
  9. thomas15

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    So, I guess no one knows the time or the date except the Father and You.
     
  10. J. Jump

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    Is that all you people have to deal with is sarcasm? Nowhere in my post did I put a "day" or an "hour" of His return. I don't know the day nor do I know the hour. But I don't think it is out of the realm of possibility to know year and a month.

    In Scripture the virgins had a pretty good idea of when the bridegroom was coming. They didn't know the day or the hour, but they knew within a few days/weeks.

    Why is it that people get upset because God has given us His timeline and there are some that want to know what it is? I don't understand that. Unless you can prove that we can't even know the year or the month then I think your sarcastic remark was misplaced.

    But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
     
    #10 J. Jump, Aug 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2007
  11. lbaker

    lbaker
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    James is absolutely correct!

    Les
     
  12. menageriekeeper

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    That may well be, cause I ain't been to school in, well never you mind how long!

    Still, it ain't proper and it is confusing to mix 'em up all in the same article.

    Now, how we get from the date of Christ's birth to the date of His second coming? :confused: I'se more confuzzled t'n I thought I was!
     
  13. rbell

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    Back to one of my unanswered ??s....

    How is it we decided that Jesus was crucified at 30? All my life I've heard 33.
     
  14. Accountable

    Accountable
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    I'm from the south myself.Makes me feel abit homesick to see the southern draw in writin'! Ya'll stick 'round, I thank it's 'bout to get hot in the kitchen!
     
  15. Bismarck

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    CE --> Christian Era ?
     
  16. Bismarck

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    I think you're correct, "by Herod". The Herodians were installed by the Caesars of Rome (Herod 1 was a client of J. Caesar), and began interfering in Jewish affairs from the start, for example they confiscated the High Priests' robes and would only return them for festivals. "by Herod" is correct.
     
  17. Bismarck

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    (1) People say Jesus was born in 4 BCE (= 4 BC) because
    (A) They say Herod 1 ("the Great") died in 4 BCE
    (B) They say Herod 1 was the "Herod" of the "Massacre of the Innocents". That Massacre happened towards the end of "Herod's" reign. So, if "Herod" = Herod 1, and if Herod 1 died in 4 BCE, then the Messiah was born shortly before 4 BCE.

    (2) Ernest Martin has shown that Herod 1 ("the Great") did not die in 4 BCE, but 1 BCE:

    (3) Herod Archelaus ruled for ~10 years after the death of his father, Herod 1 ("the Great"). Since Herod 1 in fact died in 1 BCE, Archelaus reigned from roughly 1 BC - 10 AD (= 1 BCE - 10 CE). (Recall, there's no year "0" — 1 BCE to 1 CE is one year.)

    (4) Herod Archelaus was notoriously cruel, murdered 3,000 Pharisees at the beginning of his reign, and was sacked for cruelty at the end of his reign. IMO, Archelaus is a much better candidate for the "Herod" of Matthew 2.
     
  18. Bismarck

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    Luke 3:1-2 dates the beginning of John the Baptist's ministry to 29 CE. (The 15th year of Tiberius, who began reigning in 14 CE.)

    If the Messiah was truly crucified in 37 CE...

    and John the Baptist was beheaded in 36 CE...

    That means something like 8 years passed.

    That allows for the Messiah to be baptized in 29 CE, to follow John the Baptist for 5 years, and then branch out onto his own ministry for 3 years.

    I believe that the Messiah studied as a "Talmudim" (disciple) under John the Baptist as his "Rabbi" for some period of time.
     
  19. av1611jim

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    FWIW and FYI:
    The designation "BC and AD" for locating a particular year was introduced by the Catholic church and meant "Before Christ" and Anno Domini" (OR the Year of our Lord). This has in recent decades caused some in the 'anitchrist' camp to be uncomfortable since they are daily reminded that they are lost in their sins.

    To relieve their 'unnamed fears' they change the designation to CE and BCE meaning 'Common Era and Before Common Era'.
     
  20. av1611jim

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    Yes. Jesus as a disciple of John makes TOTAL sense. Since John said "There is One coming after me whose latchet I am unworthy to unlatch".:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Of course, EVERYBODY knows that John was a Rabbi and naturally would have had students like Jesus. And EVERYBODY knows that Jesus NEEDED to learn something from John.:laugh:
     

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