Messianic Jew's and Shabbat

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by gekko, Nov 2, 2006.

  1. gekko

    gekko
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    well. what do you think? should we tell them they dont have to observe the shabbat on saturday anymore? that its everyday of the week? that its sunday? that it doesn't start till midnight?

    what about it people?

    i mean... c'mon... we know scripture more then God's chosen people right?
    so why not tell 'em what it really says and say "sabbath dont need to be observed anymore - that... that got taken out... somehow... i'll eisegete and tell you later though..."

    God bless
     
  2. Linda64

    Linda64
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am a born again, blood washed Jewish believer in the Lord Jesus Christ--I was born again in March, 1974 in a Presbyterian Church in Loveland, Colorado. I was involved in the Messianic Jewish Movement for many years before I simply left it altogether. I attended Saturday Shabbat worship services for many years. I'm going to copy and paste part of my testimony concerning the reason why I left the Messianic Jewish movement (I wrote this 6 years ago and I feel the same way today):

    This is still going on today. There is a movement within the Messianic movement called the "Hebrew Roots Movement". You can find out all about that by doing a Google search. There are more Gentiles joining themselves to the Messianic movement than there are Jews joining it. Amazing!
     
  3. gekko

    gekko
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    umm... so observing shabbat is legalistic?
     
  4. Linda64

    Linda64
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gekko--please check out the "Hebrew Roots" movement on Google. Check out this site --- it will give you background information as to what I am trying to say:

    http://www.seekgod.ca/spreadingroots.htm

    When one gets saved (Jew or Gentile), they become members of the Body of Christ--not members of any "movement". Observing Shabbat is just one of the ways that "Messianic" Jews are reverting back to the law of Moses. There are alot of Messianic Jews who say that unless you are Torah Observant, you are no better than a pagan. They consider Sunday worship to be pagan--and to some, calling one a "Christian" is repulsive.

    It was only after many years of being involved in the Messianic Jewish movement that I began to see the light. I studied the Scriptures--especially the epistle of Paul to the Galations--and what I was observing was the very same error which Paul was warning the Galations about--the "legalistic" Judaizers were attempting to put the Gentiles back under the law of Moses. Study this out for yourself--it was adding to the Gospel.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    :laugh: :applause:

    That was pretty funny! Thanks for sharing.

    Obvious the Word of God "can not be broken" and the Messianic Jews should not be mislead to think that Christ athe Creator's Holy memorial of Creation is to be transgressed "or else".

    This notion that "it does not honor God to Honor His 7th-day Creation Memorial" His "own Holy day" the one that He calls "The Holy Day of the LORD" Is 58 - is not a doctrine that comes from the Bible.

    But if you are going to appeal to man-made tradition against the Bible - then bashing Christ the Creator's Sabbath when talking to Messianic Jews is as good a start as any!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yes - just like Lev 19:18 "Loving your neighbor as yourself" and
    Deut 6:5 "Loving God with all your heart and soul"

    And Exodus 20:1-4 "having no other gods" and refusing to worship idols and refusing to blaspheme God...

    In other words - OBEYING GOD's WORD is often defined as "legalism" and "bad for you to do" -- exactly as Lucifer argued in Genesis 3 when Eve stated that obedience to God was the preferred response to God's Word.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Acts 13 we are told that "amost the whole city" turned out to hear the Gospel "the next Sabbath".

    In Isaiah 66 we are told "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" --

    I wonder if we can "eisegete" Sabbath in Isaiah 66 (speaking of the New Earth) and in Acts 13 (long after the cross) to mean "every day of the week" -- I bet if we ignore enough scripture - we could do it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. gekko

    gekko
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    i know of that movement linda - i dont agree w/ most of what they say.
    ---

    just wanted to post here a point of one of the statements of faith made by a sound messianic jewish/gentile congregation:

    the law is on our hearts.
    part of that law - is the fourth commandment.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Paul and Peter agree that instead of having a Bible "Written by Jews" or "written by Moses" what we actually have is a Bible "written by God" where ALL of it is inspired and ALL of it profitable for doctrine, instruction, reproof, correction that the man of God may be "adequately equipped" -- this notion that "that is the Jewish part of scripture" was never a concept taught by NT writers.

    It is true that some laws did apply to ISRAEL - the ONE true church of God started in the OT - as a NATION church whose mission was to EVANGELIZE the world - (not make the world into members of the Jewish nation) - but it is not true that "whatever Moses wrote is not valid because Moses is not as good at writing scripture as God"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ummmm great post!!!


     
  11. dispen4ever

    dispen4ever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    Linda, I appreciate your insights very much. You are a real encourager, with a real heart for the Good News. Do your best to ignore BobRyan. :laugh:
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Oops! Did I already post that point of truth?

    pretend you saw it for the first time. Those who value the principle of "sola scriptura" may want to remember it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,762
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi everyone on this thread!

    First of all I would like to appreciate Gekko as this is a very serious issue among the Messianic Jews and the godly gentile believers.
    Secondly I want to say that this is not that simple to conclude in a short discussion.

    After we were born again in Jesus Christ, we should follow the Holy Spirit who has the authority to interpret the real meanings of Law and help us to keep the Law in the spiritual ways.

    When we follow the guidance of Holy Spirit, does He teach us to ignore
    " Thou Shalt not Kill" ?
    Does He say to us " Thou may commit Adultery and enjoy your life" ?
    Does He abolish the commandment " thou shalt not make any graven image" ?

    Shall we steal the money and donate it for the Lord ?
    Has Jesus repealed the commandment " thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour" ?

    Can we covet our neighbour's wife and his possessions ?
    Can we have Idols at our home?

    What about Sabbath? Is the Sabbath the only one which has been abolished or rescinded among the 10 commandments since Jesus was crucified? Is Sabbath the only exception?

    Yes! or No! ( partly or in a certain sense)

    This issue is really difficult to conclude.
    I would say
    Sabbath was the shadow of Jesus Christ who is the True Rest for all His believers as He said in Mt 11:28 " come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you the rest"
    " For if Jesus ( Yeshuah ) had given the rest, would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God" ( Heb 4:8-9)

    Heb 4:10-11
    10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

    Does "enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of the unbelief" mean " we must keep the Sabbath" ?
    I don't think so, but believe that we must believe in Jesus Christ, enter into the Rest in Him.

    I personally believe that the true believers in Jesus Christ is keeping the Sabbath as long as they are in Christ following the Holy Spirit.
    So, to me, seven days a week, throughout my lifetime, everyday is Sabbath since I was born again in Jesus Christ.

    However, I do respect the people who keep and practice the Laws as Paul said in Romans 14:5-6.

    But what we should rememer are the following facts.
    1) Even in the Old Testament, the first day of the week was special.( Lev 23:7) and often 8th day meant the new start like the new millenium. (Lev 14:10, 23:36, 23:39)
    2) Jesus rose up on the first day of the week.
    He appeared again on the first day of the week ( Jn 20:19) showed up again on the eighth day ( Jn 20:26)
    3) Holy Spirit inaugurated on Pentecost which must be the first day of the week all the time.

    I do trust and appreciate the claim that Constantine declared Sunday as a "Holy and Respectful Day for Sun god" as he believed the solar god, but it might be a duplication of the 2 customs, Christianity and pagan.

    Disciples gathered together on the first day of the week ( Acts 20:7) on which they broke the bread and shared the wine in remembrance of Lord Jesus. They collected the donations on Sunday (1 Cor 16:1-2). I don't think they gathered on Saturday and then came back again to give the donations. I know there is a contraversy on the Lord's day in Rev 1:10 but I cannot believe it as Sabbath but as the first day of the week on which the Lord rose again.

    Because of this kind of background, even though the Holy Spirit doesn't work in contradiction to what He wrote in OT and eventually lead us to keep the commandments, Sabbath has been fully acomplished in Yeshuah and fully expanded to our entire lifetime in Yeshuah, and therefore we don't have to be conscious about it, nor do we have to stick to Sunday worship ( unless we are solar-god worshippers), nor to Saturday worship( unless we are legalists or Galatianists).
    However we should not just condemn Sabbath keepers as cult, because, if so, we are condemning Torah keepers as cult and advocate the Torah violators as Orthodox. Are the Adulterous the Orthodox and are the Law-keepers the cult ?
     
    #13 Eliyahu, Nov 4, 2006
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2006
  14. billwald

    billwald
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2000
    Messages:
    11,414
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mosiac Covenent for Israel

    The Mosiac Covenant is a social contract for Israel so that Jews living in Israel who have converted to Christianity are still obligated by it. Gentiles living in Pittsburg never were obligated. Ex-Jews in Pittsburg can do whatever is confortable for them. We ae under grace, not law. My Old Man, a converted Jew in New Jersey, didn't want anything to do with Jewish obsevances.
     
  15. gekko

    gekko
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    0
    under the new covenant the law is written on our heart.

    is one law to be ommited from the ten commandments?

    why is the sabbath law mentioned among the moral laws?
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    The saints take with them - the new birth - the new nature the new creation - into eternity - into the new earth into the new heavens and new earth.

    And so with that new nature fully in harmony with God and with "God's Law written on the heart" Heb 8 -- ALL MANKIND "Comes before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to WORSHIP" Isaiah 66.

    To pretend that Sabbath is foreign to the saints -- that honoring Christ the Creator's Holy day is repulsive to His OWN people - is to embrace pure error.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    While it is true that Gentiles in the OT were called to keep Sabbath, and were condemned under the Law that "condemns the entire world that ALL may be held accountable" Rom 3 -- they were never obligated to participate in the feasts of Israel. They were never called to move to Israel and become part of that nation - to "become Jews". They were always called to turn to God - obey His law and repent. MOSES was never the author of ANY scripture at all - GOD WAS -- Moses simply wrote as God directed him.

    SO ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God and IS PROFITABLE today for instruction, correction and reproof that the man of God may be adequately equipped. Instead of junking the OT scripture and most of the Gospels - the NT saints EMBRACED them! AND they taught Gospel doctrine under a "SOLA SCRIPTURA" model where "the ONE GOSPEL" was "preached to Abraham" and was "preached to us JUST as it was to them also" Heb 4:1-2.

    That remains true today.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Hmm "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" Is 66 speaking of the new Earth. Is it your view that God will call all mankind to reject the role of Christ in salvation - by calling them to "really keep" Sabbath?

    On the 7th day of Creation week Gen 2:1-3 when God makes the Sabbath - for Adam does He say "here Adam keep this in memory of my dying for your sins -" or does He say "Here Adam keep this as a promise that when you fall I will die for your sins"???

    Is so - "God forgot to mention it" in Ex 20:8-11 where God takes us BACK to Gen 2:1-3 and shows us WHY He gave mankind the Sabbath saying "THEREFORE the Lord BLESSED the Sabbath day and MADE it Holy".

    How much scripture must we ignored to go along with the stories being told in recent times?
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    D.L. Moody (hint: NOT a Seventh-day Adventist) arguing the points that anti-Sabbath posters will most often attack.

    http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

    Fundamental Baptist Institute
    http://www.fbinstitute.com/

    presents

    THE TEN COMMANDMENTS

    BY THE
    DWIGHT L. MOODY
    The Ten Commandments:
    Exodus 20:2-17
    .
    The Fourth Commandment

    Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy[/b]. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: [b]for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.[/b]


    THERE HAS BEEN an [b]awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath
    during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day[/b], and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

    [b]I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.
    I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, [b]He did nothing to set it aside[/b]; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

    "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
    It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

    The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

    I believe that the
    Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

    The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
     
  20. genesis 12-15

    genesis 12-15
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2006
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob..... Incredible nonsense. Why do you bother to post here? Wouldn't you be more comfortable among 7th Dayers? Your quote is ridiculous. Your posts don't enlighten, they disrupt. You don't add insight to the discussion, you torpedo it. I've only been around here a short time ~~ but I've read your stuff ~~ and it amazes me how tolerant the regulars have been. I wonder how many have you on ignore, or how many have left rather than plow through the reams of information you post. Heresy, defined in the strictness sense, is a teaching or practice which compels born-again Believers to separate themselves from those who hold it. Therefore, you are now ignored. :smilewinkgrin:
     

Share This Page

Loading...