Messianic Jew's and Shabbat

The fact that Exodus 20 is not repeated each time Christ the Creator's Sabbath is mentioned in scripture - is not sufficient excuse for your practice of ignoring the details in God's Word in Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11

I have no problem seeing how God ADDS salvation promises in His OWN Sabbath day -- but I see no reason to "make stuff up" as you do in Gen 1 or Gen 2 or Exodus 20.

That is just one area where we differ.

The Ezek 20:13,20 fact of God giving His Sabbath to His own people as a sign as a symbol of our belonging to Him - has never been rejected by me or SDAs.

It is in fact a key point we make in all of our Sabbath presentations.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I agree that I deny that The Bible connects day 7 of Creation week with EVERYTHING Christ did while on earth and I also deny that the Bible says "ON the Sabbath day Christ was raised from the dead".

Rather I claim that He RESTED on the Sabbath day during those 3 days and 3 nights.

 

I basically got banned from the Puritan board for standing up to the fact that Christians do not need to observe a Sabbath day.

To be honest, anybody who fails to understand this, is quite dull.

If people wish to do it, then all well and good, but we are not obliged to keep any days, but we must not neglect to meet together as some are in the habit of doing.

We meet on Sunday to praise God for raising Christ.

He is risen...

David

 

David,

Could you please give me the Bible verse that says we are to meet on Sunday now because Jesus is risen?

We need the commandments of God and not the commandments of men. In the 10 commandments it ays that the Seventh Day is the Sabbath. Where do you find that this was changed to something else in the Bible?

Ti:1:14: Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

 

There is no Scripture that says we are to meet on Sundays, I did not say so. Christian tradition dictates it.

It is a spontaneous thing.

Myself, I think every day should be a time when we meet.

The Law was nailed to the Cross, do you not see that.

You will be telling me I cannot eat pork next.

 

Christian Tradition? that is what dictates your doctrinal beliefs? I thought Protestants always get onto the Roman Catholics for doing that.

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

In my opinion the Christian has 2 commandments to keep. Be Holy as I am Holy and Love one another as I have loved you, now you can try to equate the former with the Mosiac Law, if you do then you are mistaken.

Btw what is your point and doctrine that your fighting for?

David

 

Christian tradition, not Roman Catholic. In my opinion the Roman Catholic movement is taking many people to hell.

 

David,

Hello, I believe in keeping the 7th day Sabbath holy. In New Testament times.

The entire ten commandment law is "summarized" by saying the first 4 are love to God and the last 6 are love to man. But you cannot delete any of them at will. Because God is God and He alone gets to define what "Love" is... not us...

Romans 13:
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Its the Roman Catholic Church who changed the Sabbath to Sunday and nearly the entire protestant world unwittingly (sometimes knowingly) bows down to her authority. You will never find that change in the Scriptures. The question is... is man God or is God God? we dont have the right to change the Law of God.


"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws. " Daniel 7.25.

"The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret, even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca published in 1900 in Rome by the press of the propaganda.

"The pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.

The pope's will stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.

"The Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."-Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.

"Question.-Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?"

"Answer.-Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

"In reply to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F. Thomas, Chancellor."

 

BR:
"The Ezek 20:13,20 fact of God giving His Sabbath to His own people as a sign as a symbol of our belonging to Him - has never been rejected by me or SDAs."

How does anyone 'belong to' God? Because he might keep the Sabbath? That would be works-religion. No one comes to the Father but through the Son; the Sabbath is a sign of this truth; if not, then ... well, I've already said what then. The Sabbath is Covenant-of-Grace-Sign' -- that is, it is proleptic, eschatological, prophetic, symbol of the Promised Redeemer. Christ answered every of these essential properties of the Bible-Sabbath, and FILLED it with Himself and the greatest of God's works, so that after Christ, the Sabbath contains and pours over but one essential content: The glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ through His Church. This and this only, was and is the New Testament Sabbath -- a vastly different Sabbath the the Jewish Sabbath of the letter of the Law.

 

Here's another repetition of an old theme: Says BR:
"Rather I claim that He RESTED on the Sabbath day during those 3 days and 3 nights."

"Rested" in the grave BR means of course; "rested" by being in the state of death -- the hellish penalty or wage for sin. That BR reckons, Christ's prize and compensation, His crown of victory, His rest.

No, that was Christ's anguish in death the "PANGS" - not rest - of, was only "released when God raised Him from the dead".

But here's the method in this madness, that I may not interpret God's Sabbath-rest through and in the resurrection of Christ from the dead; but BobRyan may interpret His going down in death and grave, God's Sabbath-rest in and through Christ. That is hermeneutical consistency for you.

 

BR:
"The fact that Exodus 20 is not repeated each time Christ the Creator's Sabbath is mentioned in scripture ..."

GE:
With you, BR, it's always, "Christ the Creator's ...". To me it sounds strange, being an ordinary Christian man accustomed to the Church-Confession that confesses: "I believe in God the Father, the Almighty, Creator ... and in Jesus Christ ..."

Pointing out to illustrate the gulf between your thinking and mine.

 

David,

I forgot this one for you:

"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.

 

Once again your practice of simply "making stuff up" has not served you.

The grave is not "the hellish penalty" that you claim according to Isaiah. God says that the righteous "perish and no one takes it to heart - each one rests in his bed in death".

That is why the reference this as sleep in both OT and NT.

The bogus idea that the righteous "go to a hellish penalty" in the grave is not found in all of scripture.

When Christ said "IT IS FINISHED" at the Cross BEFORE He died - He was telling the truth.

When you make up the idea that He then goes into a "hellish penalty phase" of payment AFTER it is fully paid- AFTER "IT IS FINISHED" -- is just so much more story telling on your part.

Do not blame me for stories that you are telling yourself sir.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ahhh - "making stuff up again" GE???

When will it ever stop!!??

#1. The Jews did not write God's Word - GOD did!

#2. If you are claiming that your idea of Sabbath is very different from what we find in God's Word - so beit! I will not debate you on that.

#3. God's Word is Law - NEITHER Does God go around "abolishing His Word" or claiming that anyone who honors God's Word is "paying homage to Jews not God" --

Your arguments simply do not hold water. But at least you are honest enough to admit that you are in opposition to God's Word as we read it from Genesis to Malachi. You seem to prefer the idea that the NT contradicts and opposes the OT.

How sad.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Lev 19:18 God commanded us to Love our Neighbor as ourselves.

Deut 6:5 God commanded us to Love God with All of our hearts.

Exodos 20:8-11 God personnaly spoke the 10 commandments.

Gen 1-2:3 God made the world and all life on it - and the Sun and Moon in 6 literal days then made the 7th day of the weekly cycle holy - as a blessed day.

Exodus 20:8-11 God summarized Creation week in the center of the Ten Commandments.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith??? God forbid!! in fact we establish the Law of God"!

Precross - before anything could be possibly nailed or abolished - Christ said "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Rev 12 and 14 show us that the saints are those who keep the commandments of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Christ specifically addressed the argument of those who said that His law could be broken - and or - did not need to be kept.

"DO NOT think that I came to abolish the Law" -- He then points out that those who teach such things are in error.

Matt 6 is a pretty neat chapter when it comes to that.

Romans 2 is as well "For not the HEARERS of the Law ARE Just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE JUSTIFIED" Rom 2:10-13.

For God is not partial.

In 1Cor 6 around vs 8 Paul argues "Be not deceieved" and then goes on to list examples of law violations -- stating that people who do such things will not go to heaven.

In Matt 7 Christ said the same thing "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven but he who DOES the will of My Father" --

Again this was a pre-cross statement of Christ.

It was very much like Romans 2 and John agrees in 1John 2 saying that the one who CLAIMS to Know Christ should WALK as Christ walked.

In Christ,

Bob

 

GE:
Maybe with sinners, but Jesus died the hellish penalty for our sins n- He died the second death and suffered the second death from the first moment that His "hour has come" to the moment -- the Scriptures say -- the pangs of death were released : the moment of His resurrection. Then Christ rose "from THE DEAD" -- not only from death, but from among those who receive the final death penalty for sin : hell!

That was Jesus' 'rest', according to you. Not His resurrection, like 'usual' Christians believe.

 

I agree that Jesus paid our debt of suffering (that sinner will pay and suffer for in the lake of fire which IS the "second Death") -- but He did that AND completed it -- FINISHED it - by the time He cried out "IT IS FINISHED".

Pretty obvious really - but some doctrinal modesl need to turn a blind eye to that glaringly obvious fact.

 

I am a rough man -- uneducated, unsofisticated -- in American English, 'back-bush'. People like me have several vocabularies, one of which would be improper to use in a forum like this, but perhaps in your case, most appropriate. But I'll resort to a middle-lane language, and tell you you are either dumb or the greatest hypocrite alive. But no, I cannot say either or - not in the face of this defamation, not only of my character, but of my faith in Jesus Christ. You are too dumb to comprehend the seriousness of your lines here and as habitiually elsewhere. To me (who am no psycologist) the cause of your arrogance is evident: your immense self-satisfaction and vanity for being so superior a human being of knowledge and insight you MUST be different from any and everybody else, and they MUST be of lesser intellect, insight or knowledge than you. Only YOU, have the truth; YOU, are the storehouse of divine revelation.