Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Salty, Jan 31, 2009.
From the article you posted:
"Women can do this too, but we lead in other ways that are more collegial and cooperative," she said. "Women are more inclined to say 'Let's discern this together.'"
"The present culture as a whole demands gender inclusivity," Park said. "Because of this demand, the church needs to develop some tools to help these female leaders to function effectively as religious leaders in this tremendous pluralistic and inclusive global context."
"Politically, women are rising in society. Why not in the church too?"
Sounds like democracy to me. (Rule by the people)
It seems their are some demagogues involved. (political leader who stirs up the people for personal advantage)
It appears to be an epidemic in our time.(affecting many people in an area at the same time)
Ironically, this appears to be "man" centered. :tear:
It seems to me that the Church is forgetting that it is not directed by mob rule but by the Holy Bible. Oh but we can change that too. :tear: People of God are turning from God's Holy Word to be just like the world.
Laodicea would be proud.
Its not just the UMC, the SBC is dealing with this also.
This article is from the SBC. It seems to say that the SBC is opposed to senior pastors being women but doesnt object to female clergywomen as associate pastors, ect.
A quote from this article:
Reporters often turn to a 1997 article by Sarah Frances Anders in which she referred to 1,225 confirmed SBC clergywomen. "Of these at least eighty-five are pastors," Anders reported in her article for Baptist Women in Ministry's FOLIO magazine.
A former Louisiana College professor, Anders centered her research on the progress made by women in religious leadership, particularly noting their ordination. The revision to the SBC doctrinal statement does not address ordination, but it clearly affirms the leadership of women in a variety of non-pastoral roles.
Until God removes large sections of the Bible, including the book of 1 Tim, I will not attend any church that ordains a woman in any position.
Let the Bible answer itself on this matter.
Just off the top of my head, however the Bble has this to say: A woman is not called to preach the Gospel. The woman being the weaker vessle, as Eve was tempted in the garden of Eden, she isn't required to preach and also a preacher is to be the Husband of one Wife. She can't do that. She can not be the Husband of one wife.
You responded to this...
With this comment...
As a Baptist, I praise God for those Baptists who are "getting with the program" regarding women in leadership roles, including as pastor.
I am including a link from the official Assemblies of God website to their position paper on women in positions of leadership. Keep in mind, the Assemblies of God are anything but liberal. They are as evangelical and conservative as can be.
This position paper makes it abundantly clear...from the scriptures alone that women in leadership is approved of by Almighty God, and that the few scriptures some use to exclude them are not being interpreted properly, taking into consideration the "whole" scriptural view on the topic.
I wish I could post excerpts, but its in PDF format, and I dont know how to "copy" from that format.
But it isnt excessively long.
Here it is....
The overall emphasis and reasons behind women in positions of leadership I believe has changed greatly over the years, especially in the US. When I grew up there were some women pastors, but those by and large had started new works in areas there was no other leadership available, or with 'the calling' to start. For instance, one of the most effective missionaries I have ever met was a godly women that ministered faithfully in Kenya for years. She was buried in Kenya after many years of service there. She was, for all practical purposes, their minister, although I know some men from time to time were involved filling the pulpit for short periods of time. As understand it, a man came as a full time pastor although just before her passing. I cannot see her role as usurping the position of a minister at all. I m certain God will be the final judge of that. Having known her personally, and seen her heart for those she ministered to, primarily young orphaned children and teenage girls, I am certain she had God's full approval.
On the other hand, what we are seeing here in the states has far different implications. Women seeking the office seem to be doing it to be a man’s equal in the pulpit and not out of simply a need to see someone fulfilling the office and a women is the only one available or willing to do so. They are desiring to stand in the pulpit and do precisely what God's word forbids them to do, and that is to usurp authority over the man or to be seen as teaching or instructing men. It appears much like usurping the rightful place God designed and ordained for man to fulfill than in the case of the missionary pastor I spoke about above. It seems to be an attitude of “I am as smart, equal, and capable as any man and therefore should be considered for any position on and equal basis as a man in spite of Scriptures (plural) to the contrary. It appears to be far more of a ‘feminist movement’ issue than a need orientated one. Certianly not attitudes that promote respect for, and caution exercised in, obeying God's Word.
I see this issue as involving more than one attitude therefore right in some cases and wrong in others. I do not see it as a cut and dried issue so to speak.
Nowhere is it found that women cannot preach the gospel. All Christians are called to preach the gospel. What I believe you are thinking is where it calls bishops or pastors to be men. While it is true that pastors are preachers, not all preachers are pastors. There is a distinction.
God Bless! :thumbsup:
My Mother-in-law was ranting on about how great their new lady pastor was (charismatic/word of faith church), and I quoted 1 Tim, "A bishop (pastor) must be the husband of one wife"......she said to me "That is your interpretation"
What interpretation? I didnt "interpret" anything, I simply quoted the Bible with its exact words. In 1 Tim 3:11 it gives the requirements for the wife of a pastor. Which tells me that the wife/woman has a different role than the man. Simple and final. No interpretatin needed.
If we decide that 1 Tim is wrong, or doesnt apply to us today, then what else in the Bible can we change? How do we decide what part of God's Word is true and what isnt?
Jesus called 12 apostles and not even one apostlette.
You have confused being a preacher with someone in authority of an assembly of believers. Most see the preacher or pastor as the "man in charge". Here on the BB there is no doubt going to be confusion for they do not even have elders, but rather have a pastor as the head elder.
Paul makes it clear that women are not to be in authority or leadership over their husbands in particular and other men in general.
As others have pointed out, the place we find ourselves in history makes it clear the worlds ideas on "equality" are coming into the church.
A 7th grade student I had saw right through the most common argument. I explained women were saying their reason for being elders and pastors was because they wanted to fully use their gifts. She wisely responded "They don't need the position to use their gifts, they just want to be in charge." She went on to say that if they really wanted to be serving others they wouldn't be wasting their time on trying to change the system and would just get to work.
I hope all 5 of my daughters preach the gospel.
It is sad to me to see how willing so many Christians are to toss out what the Bible says when it goes against their secular PC ideas! If the Bible is not our basis then we have no basis.
HP: That’s funny! We need a little humor once in a while!:thumbsup:
My advice would be simply to keep all your comments to positive remarks concerning how great the food tastes. :smilewinkgrin:
PS: Thanks for the post. Now I have a great answer the next time DHK quotes a Scripture.:tonofbricks:
Before I go to the AOG church to find out what God says, I'll look at the fact that they are already erronious regarding speaking in tongues. So I'll listen to Scripture over the AOG church.
In our church, more than 1/2 the staff is female (over 45 employees) and the church would absolutely crumble if not for the women. However, none of the women are in authority over men or teaching men. But they are certainly not the cook and bottle washer - they're in charge of children's ministry, drama, technology, counseling (for women and children), youth (along with men), help lead worship, plan all events, organize the service and "produce/direct" it (making sure there is someone who will lead prayer, who's doing special music, who's ushering, who's collecting the offering, etc.). You'll see at any given time when the church doors are open, women doing tremendous ministry in our church. But you will not find a pastor, deacon or elder who is a woman since we read Scripture as saying that these roles are filled by only men.
To me that sounds just like what the Bible intends. Women have a vital role to play in the church, just not as pastors or deacons.
The AOG is not Word of Faith. And did you read the material from the AOG website?
They didnt justify their stance by just saying "Thats just your interpretation", or "Thats just their interpretation".
They systematically, and thoughtfully, took into consideration ALL of the scriptures regarding this topic. They balanced the scriptures that you and others quote, against the many other scriptures that contradict those ones....thus coming to a balanced conclusion.
They didnt decide 1 Tim is "wrong", but rather that it is sometimes interpreted without taking into consideration the whole counsel of the scriptures.
They arent "changing" the scriptures, only taking into consideration the WHOLE of the scriptures.
Its all the word of God, and its all true. The AOG is not denying that in the least bit.
Well, they disagree with you on that, and so do I...however, thats not the topic at hand.
The topic at hand is women in leadership, and those conservative evangelicals presented a thoughtfull, balanced and very scriptural argument in favor of allowing women in leadership. They didnt just say "we just like that view", they supported the view with "thus sayeth the Lord", via the scriptures.
Nobody is listening to anything because it is the AOG. I am a Baptist. But they are not liberals by any streach of the imagination. The AOG are very much "people of the book" and are conservative evangelicals.
Nobody is taking anything from any persective other than "this sayeth the Lord" in His scriptures.
Exactly.:thumbsup: Men likewise don't need to be "elders" to use their gifts, they just want to be in charge. If they really wanted to be serving others they wouldn't be wasting their time pushing a system and would just get to work.
"I remember that when Andrew Fuller had a very severe lecture from some Scotch Baptist brethren about the discipline of the church [the Scotch Baptists were a splinter group who insisted on multiple elders rather than a pastor], he made the reply, "You say that your discipline is so much better than ours. Very well, but discipline is meant to make good soldiers. Now, my soldiers fight better than yours, and I think therefore that you ought not to say much about my discipline." So the real thing is not to be for ever calculating about modes of church government, and methods of management and plans to be adopted and rules to be laid down, which it shall be accounted a serious breach to violate. All well in their place, for order is good in its way. But come, now, let us go to work. Let us have something done." ---Charles Spurgeon
Scripture does not support women pastors.
Scripture does support women pastors. :thumbs: