Mid Trib Rapture

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Oct 1, 2005.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    I have come across more and more people in my church who believe in mid trib rapture (including my pastor). I am pre trib. I am curious as to what scripture supports mid trib as opposed to what scripture refutes mid trib. This is not intended to be a who's right, pre, mid or post trib, but biblical evidence supporting and refuting mid trib rapture.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    I had a dear Brother in Christ.
    In 1991 the US lead a coalition
    of armies invading Iraq to
    retrieve Kuwait from Iraq. My Brother in Christ
    said: "I'm going from pretrib to
    mid-trib on this one!"

    Here are some things i put in the
    mid-tribulation crises - none of which is
    a general rapture:

    2c. the mid-tribulation events
    (these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

    2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
    2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
    2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
    2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
    2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
    2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
    2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
    2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
    2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
    2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
    2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
    2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
    ----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
    2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
    ----- (Rev 12:1-6)
     
  3. webdog

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    So, when exactly is it during the "mid" of the tribulation do mid tribbers think the rapture will come? I'm not understanding why they believe in mid trib rapture :confused:
     
  4. LadyEagle

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    I'm pretrib, but wonder about mid-trib sometimes. Mainly because of the Christian persecution going on all over the globe. I have arguments for both in my head. :eek:

    But I always revert back to God shutting the door on the ark.
     
  5. natters

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    Here's some old notes from a study I did a few years ago:

    Introduction

    The partial (or "split") rapture theory is quite uncommon. It involves two resurrections/raptures of saints: one that is pre-trib and another that is that is either mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib. In this view, which resurrection/rapture one will be part of is a matter of reward based on works (instead of being an integral part of salvation as in the other views), namely to watch, wait, and pray. Those watching and waiting for the rapture, and praying to be accounted worthy, will be "rewarded" by being resurrected/raptured in a pre-trib event. Those believers not actively doing so will be left to endure part or all of the tribulation, and be resurrected/raptured later.

    Scriptural Passages used to support the Partial Rapture view

    - Parable of the Virgins (Matt 25:1-13)
    --- Partial rapture supporters maintain that all 10 virgins are believers:
    ------ All 10 are "virgins"
    ------ All are waiting to meet the bridegroom
    ------ All have oil in their lamps
    ------ All are prepared for a while (if the Bridegroom was not long in coming, they would have all been ready)
    ------ All virgins sleep, and all awake together
    --- The only difference between the 5 foolish and the 5 wise virgins was that the 5 foolish ones lacked a secondary measure of oil. If they had more "oil" (spirituality? works? endurance? Holy Spirit?), they would have been ready with the 5 wise virgins.

    - Two in the field (Matt 24:40-44, Luke 17:34-36)
    --- The "two" are companions, equals - not different. One is taken in a pre-trib rapture and the other is left to go through part/all of the tribulation.

    - Escape (Luke 21:36)
    --- Escape is possible, and seems to be dependent on watching and praying, not on salvation.

    - 1 Cor 3:13-15 - the faithful receives a reward (v14), the one not as concerned will not but is still saved (v15)

    - Other verses that exhort us to "watch", "pray", and "wait": Matt 24:42-43, Matt 25:13, Mark 13:33-37, 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Pet 4:7, Rev 3:3

    Positive Aspects

    - Very creative theory that attempts to bring together some seemingly conflicting passages. Rather than saying the other views are wrong (as the other views do), it says the other views are right, but not complete. It allows for the otherwise mutually-exclusive strengths of other views to be used together (e.g. "imminency" of pre-trib vs. "endurance" of post-trib)
    - Encourages a seriousness in people's faith - encourages people to avoid getting complacent in their faith, encourages spiritual preparedness, and also encourages active watching for the Lord's return.
    - Offers possible meanings to some passages that otherwise have been missed.

    Negative Aspects

    - The "works" aspect of it does not sit well with most Christians.
    - Seems to read too much into some passages, or take them out of context by ignoring surrounding verses that would prove difficult to explain (e.g. the "I know you not" in the parable of the virgins)
    - Seems to be a very "hidden" truth - if this view was true, one would expect it to be a little more explicit.
    - Can easily produce "elite-group" mindset.
     
  6. natters

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    Whoops, sorry, I posted the "split rapture" notes. Here are my midtrib rapture notes:

    Introduction

    The mid-trib view is somewhat of a mediating position between the pre-trib and the post-trib views. As the name implies it teaches that the rapture will occur at the midpoint of the last seven years before Christ's return.

    This is a relatively new view, coming into mainline eschatology discussion in the 1940s. It is a less popular view, perhaps due to its relative newness.

    Tenets of Midtribulationalism

    - As indicated in the illustration a sharp distinction is made between the "tribulation" and "wrath" (or "great tribulation"), not only in terms of what they describe but also in terms of time as well. Where pre-trib sees the "tribulation" as equaling "wrath", and post-trib sees a distinction but allows them to overlap in time, mid-trib totally separates them.
    --- Mid-trib is similar to post-trib in that it places the church in tribulation, and it is similar to pre-trib in that it has the church absent from the wrath
    --- There are some mid-trib believers that DO equate "tribulation" and "wrath". They are probably more simply pre-trib believers that believe in a 3½-year trib instead of a 7-year trib.

    - Rapture occurs at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:15ff)
    --- The preceding seals and trumpets were not "wrath", nor the "Great Tribulation" (This seems to ignore Rev 6:17 and Rev 7:14)

    - Why right at the midpoint?
    --- The two witnesses have just finished their 1,260-day (3½ years) mission (Rev 11:1-14), which is immediately followed by the 7th trumpet
    --- Passages that speak of persecution of saints at the hand of the Antichrist for 3½ years: Dan 7:25, Rev 13:5-10
    ------ After the 42 months of persecution in Rev 13, the second beast sets up an image of the first, for worship. This may be the abomination that occurs at the halfway point (Dan 9:27, Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14, 2 Thess 2:4)
    ------ After the 42 months of persecution of Rev 13, the rest of Revelation is wrath and judgement. (Rev 14:7, etc.)
    --------- Note the "hour or judgement" of Rev 14:7 may be what's referred to by the promise of deliverance from the "hour of trial" of Rev 3:10
    --- Other passages that divide the 7 years in half are Dan 9:27, Dan 12:7, Dan 12:11-12, Rev 11:2-3, Rev 12:6 and Rev 12:14

    Positive Aspects

    - Attempts to address the difficulties found in the pre-trib and post-trib views (e.g. differing meanings of "saints" in pre-trib, the mention of escape in post-trib (Luke 21:36, Rev 3:10))
    - Provides a very nice solution for the split of the 7 years that the other views seldom even address.

    Negative Aspects

    - In attempting to combine the positive attributes of pre- and post-, it has also combined the problems (e.g. the "last" trump problem of pre-trib, the "imminency" problem of post-trib)
    - Difficulty in harmonizing all related scripture - at times it seems to ignore passages that seem to run counter to the view
     
  7. Soulman

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    The bible states that when Christ comes in the clouds it is for His church prior to the tribulation. God always delivers us from His wrath. As far as christians in the tribulation, I believe those are folks that will be saved as a result of the 144,000 preaching the gospel.

    Some say no one will be saved during this time.

    The bible says that upon the return of Christ the survivors will be seperated as sheep and goats (saved and unsaved)
    Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    When Christ returns to set up His milleniel kingdon He will come back with the redeemed (bride).
    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Just how I see it.
     
  8. ituttut

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    This (mid-Trib) has also entered my mind as it is a plausible theory, but the Ark jerks me back, and Christ catches me up before stumbling into the tribulation. I believe there are to many contradictions to overcome dealing directly with the Mid position. I believe through scripture we can show the Pre-Tribulation stance is the only one that can be proved, thus disproving all others.

    The Ark is strong and viable with its sealing in Before the waters are troubled. Of interest is they were sealed in seven days before the rains came. We will be sealed in before the seven years of wrath is upon the earth.

    As a dispensationalist, understanding that Daniel and Revelation are of prophecy and we are not, we can take of prophecy what will happen, and take of Paul, he being the one Christ informed We are Sealed, and will be raptured before the tribulation.

    I believe Daniel gives the necessary information of what will happen in prophecy, and we now have the book of Revelation by John opening up new information, the Bible giving us all the information from the beginning until the end, and a glance into eternity. We then have what Christ Jesus revealed to Paul to keep us from being deceived, in this and other matters.

    Daniel 9:24-27, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

    I Thessalonians 4:15-18, ” For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    II Thessalonians 2:2-3, “ That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

    We can see God is now going to deal again directly with His people, and His Holy City as shown above in verse 24 of Daniel. In 27 He is still speaking of His people for the “covenant” is again involved, which the Jew of course believes, and in three and half years all heck will break loose.

    As Jesus Christ has revealed to Paul we will be caught up to meet our Lord Jesus Christ in the air. This must be so, and we will not let man deceive us, for we have been conmforted.

    I am of the bent we will be taken just prior to his “confirming the covenant” at the beginning to the seven years left, we being “snatched up quickly”. We can see this debate has been going on for quite a while, as the Thessalonians were worried about the matter, and Paul tells them to not worry about it. We entered into this secret time on Damascus Road, and this secret time will end when we are caught-up to meet Him in the air. I believe then, and only then can “payback” time began.
     
  9. Plain Old Bill

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    As bad as things are now they are nothing compared to the approaching tribulation when it starts.I expect to be gone when the tribulation starts.
     
  10. tinytim

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    Please give me book chapter and verse.
    I have yet to find it as you say it.
     
  11. Brother James

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  12. Benjamin

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    I’ve been chewing on that kind of food for a while!

    I agree that the wicked will be taken away first and that all through the Bible it supports this, not only that but warns about being prepared. I don’t know how much of it will be by force though; I think there may be a lot of volunteers that are being deceived and will be seduced by the Anti-Christ, who comes first, thinking they were going to escape the trib. Jesus will not be happy with a bride being with child when He comes knowing they’ve been fooling around; these are the people that will be taken by force. Okay, My 2 cents, I’m out of here!

    Eze 13:20
     
  13. Ed Edwards

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Soulman:
    The bible states that when Christ comes in the clouds
    it is for His church prior to the tribulation. .....
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Tinytim: "Please give me book chapter and verse.
    I have yet to find it as you say it."

    Unfortunately, the Pretribulation rapture hope is NOT that simple.

    Roman 3:9b (KJV1769):
    ... ... both Jews and Gentiles, that they
    are all under sin;

    (Romans 3:10-18 quotes 5 passages in the Psalms and 1 in Isaiah)

    The conclusion of these 6 passages is that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin.
    It is summarized again in Romans 3:23 (KJV1769):

    For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Likewise, therer is no 'prooftext' for the pretribulation rapture.
    If you want to have hope in the pretribularion rapture, you must
    look at many passages JUST AS PAUL USED MANY SCRIPTURES to prove
    all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

    Soulman: "The bible states that when Christ comes in the clouds
    it is for His church prior to the tribulation."

    Amen, Brother Soulman -- Preach it!

    BTW, when Jesus comes WITH THE CLOUDS He will destroy the
    forces of the Antichrist and set up a physical Millinnial Kingdom.

    1. WITH THE CLOUDS
    Revelation 19:14 (KJV1769 edition):
    And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon
    white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean

    (Hundreds of Millions /ed's number/ of white clothed persons
    on white horses is going to look from 100s of miles away
    JUST LIKE A WATER CLOUD.)

    2. He will destroy the forces of the Antichrist
    Revelation 19:19-20 (KJV1769):
    And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and
    their armies, gathered together to make war against him
    that sat on the horse, and against his army
    20. And the beast was taken .. and them that worshipped his image,
    These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone ...

    2. and set up a physical Millinnial Kingdom
    Revelation 20:6 (KJV1769 edition):
    Blessed an holy is he that hath part in the forst resurrection
    .. but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign
    with him a thousand years.

    Collectively the event described by Soulman at the start of
    the tribulation period (AKA: day) and the event i described at the end of the
    tribularion period (AKA: day) - collectively they are called
    THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST (Messiah Jesus). Just for confusion, the
    event at the end of the Tribularion day is called by the same name.

    Also in the Bible "Day of the Lord" is used with multiple meanings:
    1. the rapture, tribulation, and Second Advent event
    2. the Tribulation period (day) only
    3. the Tribulation week (day), the Millinnial Kingdom, and the re-defeat
    of Satan after the Tribularion

    Collectively "Day of the Lord" means any time when God
    intervenes in the affair of mankind to SAVE MANKIND from self-destruction
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    Ed,

    Still there is none verse find anywhere in tne Bible saying that our gathering together shall be occured before tribulation. Your logical of use verses in your own interpreting them, these do not saying anything that the coming or rapture will be before tribulation, because none of any verse saying "before tribulation".

    Matthew 24:29-31 showing the clearest passage saying that Christ shall come again immediately aftertribulation to gathering us together at the sound of the trumpet.

    Early Christians understood Matt. 24:29-31 speak so very clear that our gathering together shall be after tribulation. Even, they believed there will be the only one future coming of Christ at the end of the age.

    No way you can argue or tear the context of Matt. 24:29-31 out of the Bible saying that Christ shall come again after tribulation, to gathering us together is so CLEAR [​IMG]

    You have to accept what Christ actual saying it. You cannot argue or ignore what Christ's own voice about His coming.

    Ed, I cannot understand why you seems not accept the clear passage of Matt. 24:29-31 saying Christ shall come again after tribulaiton, to gathering us together for about 54 years?

    Whilst myself was pretrib, my friends showed me of Matt. 24:29-31. This passage caused me to left pretrib camp just for only a day. Why you still struggling or resisting with Matt. 24:29-31 clearly saying Christ shall come after tribulation for 54 years?

    I think, the reason you seems have hard time to accept Matt. 24:29-31 for 54 years. Because you seems already set your own defend of your beliefs, also, you already have reputation, like as you are deacon, or, Sunday school teacher, or pastor, at an independent fundamental baptist church. I believe the reason why you refuse willing to agree with Christ's lecture of Matt. 24:29-31, because of, probably you already sign and agreement with church's statement of faith, that you have to agree and follow it. What if, your belief is chnaged from pretrib to posttrib, you kmight be forced to be resigned as deacon, or eleder, or sunday school teacher, or pastor like as to be fired.

    I have a true story to tell you. I have face tough situation at an independent fundamental baptist college, and missionary board. They wanted me to sign and agree with their statement of faith that I have to agree with them on pretribulation return of Christ. It was so LONG story to telling you. I could have become candidate as missionary long time ago already. But I am not misisonary, because I cannot sign or agreement with their statement of faith. I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying.

    My ex-deaf pastor at his baptist church, he told me, that he admitted, that I am right. He said to me, "I am fear, if I change my beliefs, I might lost my reputation." I know what he means. Because he already have many supports from churches, and he is also missionary under the board. He does not want to lost his reputation, and LOSE support- $$$$$.

    I have nothing against him. I highly respect and admire him so well. He's a wondeful servant of God. He works so hard for the Lord. I cannot blame on him.

    Church history already spoil Christians because of men's teaching. We have to sticky on God's Word, what it saying than what men saying.

    To everyone of you, I urge you, please follow what the Bible saying everything, and to agree with it, and to obey God's Word, than listening to any men's teaching of their popular group. [​IMG]

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. InChrist

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    Hi all

    These are just my understandings on this matter..

    When Jesus was speaking in Matthew 24 the Church had not yet been established. It was still a mystery. The audience he was speaking to were Jews, and for the nation of Israel the Second Coming of the Messiah IS at the end of the Tribulation.

    The Church was not established until AFTER Christ's ascension at the day of Pentecost, and if you read through Acts, you can see that even Apostle Peter had trouble reconciling with the fact that "unclean" Gentiles were now to be included in God's program. It took them ALL a while to get their heads around the idea of being 'one body' and 'the Church'.

    If you take a look at the "70 weeks prophecy" (490 years) of Daniel 9, you will see that their is a gap between when the Messiah was cut off or crucified (fulfilling 483 years of the prophecy) and the last week (7 years) of the prophecy when the AC sets up a peace treaty with Israel.

    This gap is the 'mystery' of the Church. Romans 11 talks of the Israelites being blind in part at the moment... and this will continue until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    At the moment God has a 'break' in His dealings with Israel, and once the last soul during this Church Age is saved, the Church will be raptured out, and God's timeclock with Israel will then start back up.

    The Tribulation is NOT for Christ's Church, but is for the nation of Israel to bring them to repentance.

    Books such as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are Jewish in nature, although eluding to the Church that was to come, and therefore should be read and understood from a Jewish persective.

    InChrist
     
  16. InChrist

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    Also, some reasons to consider as to why the 'mid-trib' theory does not stand in Scripture (notes taken from a message I heard a while ago).

    1) The Rapture of the Church cannot occur halfway through the 7-year period of Tribulation because the conversion of Israel occurs in the first half of the 70th "week", and that would place it BEFORE the Rapture. If Jews are saved before the Rapture, they become part of the Church.

    2) If the Church Age extends to halfway through the Tribulation, then all Israel would instantly become part of the Church and lose their national identity, for "in Christ" there is "neither Jew nor Greek", but we are "all one in Christ" (Gal 3:28)

    3) Also, if the Church is raptured at the midpoint of the Tribulation, and the Jews, having been saved at that time, are a part of the Church, THIS WOULD LEAVE NO JEWS ON EARTH TO SURVIVE THE TRIBULATION and take their place in the millennial kingdom of Christ - they would all have been raptured! However, Scriptures makes it very plain that Israel is not a part of the Church adn will be ON EARTH when Jesus comes at the end of the Tribulation.

    "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM" (Rev 1:7).

    4) It should be noted that the "70th week" of Daniel 9 is exclusively Jewish. It is "determined upon THY PEOPLE and upon THY HOLY CIT" (Dan 9:24). THe 69th week finished on Palm Sunday, before which there was NO CHURCH. Silimarly, there will be no Church on earth during the 70th week. Jeremiah calls the Day of the Lord, or the Tribulation, "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer 30:7). Why should the 70th week be any different from the first 69 weeks? They are all determined upon the Jews and Jerusalem.

    5) Finally, Antichrist makes his covenant with Israel for 7 YEARS, therefore he must be hire in the FIRST HALF of the 70th week, and Paul states that the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation, can't come until two things happen. He says:

    "He who now letteth (hinders), will let (hinder), UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, and THEN shall that Wicked be revealed" (2 Thess 2:7-8).

    It is the Holy Spirit in the Church who hinders the development of the mystery of iniquity UNTIL the Rapture, when He, with the Church, is "taken out of the way". THE CHURCH CANNOT BE ON EARTH AFTER ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED, AND THE ANTICHRIST IS HERE FOR THE WHOLE 7 YEARS! He has a 7-year covenant with Israel. Therefore there cannot be a mid-Tribulation Rapture.

    InChrist
     
  17. Ed Edwards

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    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the lower case 'p' "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah).
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    \o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

    \o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    2) our gathering together unto him

    Titus 2:13 (KJV1873):
    Looking for that blessed hope,
    and the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ

    Two events mentioned here:
    1) blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing of the great God
    and our Saviour Jesus Christ


    These two events are mentioned elsewhere seperately
    throughout the Bible. The Rapture, which
    was a mystery in the O.T. is now mentioned
    in the N.T.

    Rapture Passages (the gathering, the blessed hope):

    Matthew 24:31-44 (in the Mount Olivet Discourse
    ---/mod/ and parallel passages in Mark 13 & Luke 21)
    John 14:1-3
    Romans 8:19
    1 Corinthians 1:7-8, 15:51-53, 16:22
    Philippians 3:20-21, 4:5
    Colossians 3:4
    1 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:19, 4:13-18, 5:9,23
    2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2:1, 2:3
    1 Timothy 6:14
    2 Timothy 4:1,8
    Hebrews 9:28
    1 Peter 1:7,13, 5:4
    1 John 2:28-3:2
    Jude 1:21
    Revelation 2:25

    Second Advent Passages
    (Jesus comes again in power and glory
    to defeat the antichrist and set up the
    millinnial kingdom):

    Daniel 2:44-45, 7:9-14, 12:1-3
    Zechariah 12:10, 14:1-15
    Matthew 13:41
    Matthew 24:15-30, 26:64
    Mark 13
    Luke 21
    Acts 1:9-11, 3:19-21
    1 Thessalonians 3:13
    2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, 2:8
    1 Peter 4:12-19
    2 Peter 3:1-14
    Jude 1:14-15
    Revelation 4-19
    ----------------------------------
    Please note that mid tribbers use the same
    exact passages. Note that post-tribbers use the
    same exact passages. The difference is in how
    they are put togehter.

    Personally i go for the hopeful solution:
    the pretribularion rapture/resurrection.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother InChrist -- Preach it!

    That is a good way to look at it.
    However, I've found a way that the Mount
    Olivet discourse (Matthew 24, 25; Mark 13,
    Luke 21) speaks to us Gentiles. I'll share
    that way with this topic tonight or tomorrow
    morning.
     
  20. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Amen!
     

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