middle ground

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

Doesn't God really elect those who will come? Those that won't come aren't elected. Doesn't God know from the beginning of creation (or before) who will and who won't come to Him? Those He forsees will come to Him, He sends His Spirit to draw them.

Sometimes I think neither side adds up. :laugh:

I think I'll just thank God that He called me and I responded, regardless if I can explain it or not.

 

Exactly. In the free-will "fairness" scenario, God is obligated to "offer" salvation to everyone. But if God is under such obligation, the so-called "gift" is no longer a gift, and grace is no longer grace. As you quoted later, He will have mercy on whom He has mercy. That's all there is to it.

 

I have an actual life. Unfortunately it has recently involved a herniated disk in my back that has me flat on my back and unable to do much. Plus my renewed dedication to worthwhile acccomplishment at my current stage of life and ministry has caused me to cut back on the amount of time I spend here.

So where is the middle ground between God unconditionally chooses individuals to salvation and God doesn't unconditionally choose individuals to salvation?

That's incoherent. To "elect" is to "choose." (Look it up.) It is not both unconditional and conditional. This is one reason why I don't spend much time in here recently. We have people who don't even know the meaning of words.

This is pure Calvinism.

 

No, that's not what the Bible says.

All the Father gives Me will come to Me. It doesn't say, "may come to me if they so decide", after which I'll call them the elect/chosen. We WILL come. And we come because we have been chosen and given to Him.

 

Hi NP,
Maybe the Father only gives to Jesus those He forsaw (is that a word? :laugh: )would say yes?

 

These are who God has called,

1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

If God called me because He knew I would except, would'nt I then be able to brag about it?

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

God doesn't say anything about knowing who will except. God calls according to His will.

 

I think it's unconditional/conditional election.

It comes down to the question of how God chooses (elects) those whom he will bring to salvation. Does he choose based on something within them (like his forseeing that they will come to faith), or not?

But the five points of Arminianism don't preclude a belief in eternal security. Here's a comparision chart, and you'll see that

and the original Remonstrants (those who developed the five points of Arminianism) left the question of whether believers are capable of falling from grace open.

So believing in eternal security doesn't mean someone is not Arminian.

 

If the bold part meant "whom He foreknew would say yes", it would have to be a different Greek word than proginosko. The Greek word there means "knew beforehand intimately". Some free willers claim, "same diff - if He knew us intimately, that also means He knew what we'd choose".

However, this presents problems in the context. "whom He foreknew" is as opposed to "whom He did NOT foreknow". The opposite is depicted by Jesus saying, "I never knew you". In fact, that word "knew" is ginosko - the same word in "foreknew".

But if you change it to mean "knew beforehand would say yes", then that would be as opposed to "I never knew what you would say". Obviously, it cannot be true that Jesus never knew what we'd choose.

So it does violence to the text to try to make "foreknow" mean that.

 

Everyone, on both sides agrees that God foresees who will come to him. The question is: Does God elect (or choose) them because he foresees they will come? Is their foreseen choice to come the determining factor in God's choice of them? Or is God's choice of them the determining factor in their being willing to come?

Or to put it in a slightly different way: Did God foresee them coming because he chose to bring them to salvation, or did he choose to bring them to salvation because he foresees them coming?

 

Ya'll are making my brain hurt! :laugh:

Good point MK!

Looking forward to the responses.

 

If I walk into a room filled with people and offer $100.00 to anyone who excepts, I guarantee there will be a stampede. At least in my circle of friends. :thumbs:

Now to assume that God will call anyone who he foreknew would except, would mean everyone would except. Why? because He would need to regenerate everyone in order for everyone to understand what they are accepting. To assume that anyone who knew the choice, Heaven or Hell would except Hell is not being realistic. That's the value of the gift I'm talking about.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Nobody, called or not understands what is being offered until God touches that heart. Unless somehow a person would be willing to go to HELL then God choosing because of foreknowledge will not work.

 

In the end, God will force everyone to submit. But the key word here is force. When a man is saved, he is not forced to his knees. He is brought to his knees because of sin and his need to repent. God's holiness in contrast to a man's sin is profound. If anyone says they are saved and have never experienced that gut wrenching guilt which conviction brings then they should re-examine their relationship with God.

 

2pe 3:9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all (who were called) should come to repentance.

If God is unwilling that any should perish, but because many do perish, doesn't that diminish God's power. A holy and sovereign God will not have His will come to naught. So, the all can only be those who He called and not everyone in the world.

 

In that case just keep adding 0s. Sooner or later you will reach that magic number.

 

The added words were for clarity since God's Will and Power were being called into question.