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Militant/Moderate/Modified Fundamentalism

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 21, 2004.

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  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    George Dollar, guru and author of A History of Fundamentalism, classified FUNDAMENTALISM at the end of the 20th Century in these three categories.

    Here are the categories, definitions and a few schools that will help a person visualize the distinction. ALL ARE FUNDAMENTALISTS!

    MILITANT Fundamentalism = expound all Biblical doctrine AND expose all error and compromise and those who believe such

    Examples: Maranatha BBC, Bob Jones, Clearwater Christian, Faith BBC, BBC Springfield, BBC Clarks Summit, Central Seminary, Calvary Seminary, Detroit Seminary, Pillsbury BBC, Faith Seminary

    MODERATE Fundamentalism = expound all Biblical doctrine BUT will not expose error and compromise or those who believe such

    Examples: Biola, Cedarville, Dallas Seminary Grace Seminary, Cornerstone, Moody, Tennessee Temple, Westminster Seminary

    MODIFIED Fundamentalism = believe most (not all) Biblical doctrine AND will actively cooperate with apostasy and compromise

    Examples: Fuller Seminary, Gordon-Conwell, Trinity College and Seminary, Wheaton, LaTourneau, ORU, Western Conservative Baptist
     
    #1 Dr. Bob, Aug 21, 2004
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Addendum: Here are some major Mission organizations and how Dr. Dollar would categorize them:

    Militant = Assoc of Baptists for World Evangelism, Baptist World Mission, Baptist International Mission Inc, Baptist Mid-Missions, Baptist Bible Fellowship, Maranatha Baptist Missions, Evangelical Baptist Missions

    Moderate = Amer.Board of Missions to the Jews, Central African Mission, Trans-World Radio, Word of Life Fellowship, Gospel Missionary Union, Back to the Bible

    Modified = Africa Inland Mission, Conservative Baptist Foreign Mission Soc., TEAM (The Evangelical Alliance Mission), Far Eastern Gospel Crusade, Greater Europe Mission, Sudan Interior Mission, World Vision, Wycliffe Translators
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, Aug 21, 2004
  3. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    Dr. Bob,
    Three Questions:
    1. Are the examples yours or Dollar's?

    2. I have Dollar's book- got it as part of my grandfather's library when he died. The parts I've read so far have been enjoyable. I feel badly for asking this, but who is/was he? Is he still around?

    3. Do you consider Dollar's book to be more authoritative/dependable than David Beale's more recent book on the history of Fundamentalism?
     
    #3 Greg Linscott, Aug 21, 2004
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    1. Examples are all Dr. Dollar's. I would not have been so generous! (And list is from 1975 ish)

    2. Doc is BA MDiv from Gordon-Conwell, ThM from Emory, MA and PhD from Boston. Taught at Dallas Seminary, Columbia and was VP of Piedmont BBC.

    Chairman of Bob Jones church history at the time of writing his books (1970's) and then Professor of Church History at Central Baptist Seminary in Minneapolis.

    He pastored SBC until 1954, when he left over the compromise. He helped found the Southwide Baptist Fellowship.

    3. His book is head-and-shoulders above Beale, mostly from his extensive hands-on to much of fundamentalism's history from 1950-2000. He is a "doer", not just a writer.

    I think from the time frame, Beale would have been a STUDENT of Dollar at BJU!! and is just a couple years older than me.
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Aug 21, 2004
  5. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Dr. Bob, do you think that any of those in the "militant" category have moved down to the "moderate", moderate on down to modified, and modified to whatever definition could be used. If so, would you please expound? I've seen this type of listing before and believe your imput would be helpful in many people's understanding of it.

    Thanks

    AVL1984 [​IMG]
     
    #5 AVL1984, Aug 25, 2004
  6. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    While the SBC would not qualify back then, nor would any of the SBC seminaries qualify back then, wonder where they should be now?
     
    #6 TomVols, Aug 25, 2004
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Not sure any SBC seminary would be "militant" even in their recent conservative resurgence.

    Dollar saw a slide from Militant to Moderate of places like Tennessee Temple. I think that change is much more in the past 30 years.

    For instance, Pillsbury BBC slowly drifted in the early 90's from the militant to moderate. In 1996 by conscious effort, it went back into the militant camp. I was part of that transformation.
     
    #7 Dr. Bob, Aug 26, 2004
  8. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Dr. Bob, what about MBBC? There are some IFB militant pundits that have come out against the college, ie., David Cloud, Thomas Strouse, etc., stating that it has lost it's militant fundamentalist roots. Dr. C was, in my opinion, a militant fundamentalist, though his successor, Arno Q Weniger was not, but more of a moderate. I believe under Dr. Jaspers the college has started to drift back towards the militant, yet am being informed by many who attended in my day, and many from your time frame that because of people like Dr. Oats and others that the school is probably now more moderate or modified. What is your take on these statements? I believe you still have family working there, and I've got many friends still working there.

    AVL1984
     
    #8 AVL1984, Aug 26, 2004
  9. Greg Linscott

    Greg Linscott <img src =/7963.jpg>

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    Maranatha does not take the same position on the KJV as these men do. Unless that is a defining characteristic of militant fundamentalism (and I don't beleive it is), I have observed that they would be very comfortable in the militant "camp."

    Cloud and Strouse have the right to believe and teach as they do. I don't believe that excludes them from the Fundamentalism. I just don't believe that it defines it, either.
     
    #9 Greg Linscott, Aug 26, 2004
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Cloud is on the lunatic fringe of fundamentalism and I am saddened that anyone even reads the trash he presents. And Strouse is, well, Strouse.

    MBBC is still firmly in the Militant Camp. Standing AND Separated, but with a Christian gracious that the pugnacious wannabes like Cloud and Strous will never understand.

    While I am Militant personally by heritage and training, I am a little closer today to the Moderate position. As I work with evangelicals and fundamental groups in my church planting mission and in education, I see some of the militant positions as not as much a priority.

    Strange how we all "mellow". [​IMG]

    KJVonly is so cult-like that they believe anyone or anything NOT like them must be evil.
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Aug 26, 2004
  11. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Thank you for that explanation, Dr. Bob. I appreciate it. I always liked and still do like Dr. Strouse. He was one of my favorite teachers (as far as his level of study and information that he dispersed, though his style was somewhat a sleeping pill for me...I had him for my first hour doctrines class...LOL!). I'm glad to know that you believe MBBC is still in the militant camp. I see from Dr. Clouds newsletter every now and again, in the introduction to one book he is always naming those who wrote for the intro, or something to that affect, and it includes Larry Oats, and is basically a slam on the man, and it bothers me).

    Good balanced views, Brother. I'm glad God had us cross paths.

    AVL1984
     
    #11 AVL1984, Aug 26, 2004
  12. superdave

    superdave New Member

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    They slam Larry Oats because of his stand on the versions issue, something that has nothing to do with his fundamentalist stand on doctrine, Idolatry is a sad thing. :(

    I agree, MBBC is still well inside the historical militant definition. Mellowed perhaps from Dr. C, but still very much a stong IFB school, and one of the higher quality educations among schools that would call themselves IFB.

    They have been labeled (along with DBTS, Calvary, Central, et. al) as drifting from fundamentalism because they have made a fairly stong response to the KJVO IFB camp while still (at least in MBBC's case) using the KJV for chapel, classes, etc. There is no problem with the stance of the school, just some small groups within the modern IFB movement that are seeking to redefine the terms to include something they have never entailed.

    I had Dr. Oats for doctrine, and no one would be able to say he is not a fundamentalist, strongly so. If you look at the Bible faculty as a whole, there is, as in any school, some diversity of thought in most cases on issues that are somewhat peripheral in nature, but they clearly agree with the doctrinal statement of the school which is solid. If I were to be generous to the school's attackers, I would agree that MBBC is somewhere between militant and moderate, erring on the side of militant wherever there is uncertainty. But that really is a subjective measurement, since everyone has their own sliding scale on what a "fundamentalist" is.
     
    #12 superdave, Aug 26, 2004
  13. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Dr. Bob, how did TTU turn from Militant to moderate? What happened to TTU?

    Thank you for this information because it helps me understand with regard to their belief and stand.
     
    #13 Askjo, Aug 26, 2004
  14. Orvie

    Orvie New Member

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    they woke up and realized that the Christian life is more than a bunch of "Thou shalt nots" ;)
     
    #14 Orvie, Aug 27, 2004
  15. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Larry Oats was raised in the same church I was raised in. I knew his mother and stepfather well, and always looked forward to seeing Brother Oats come home to visit. I was glad to get to know him better when I went to MBBC. Though I didn't always agree with him on everything, he showed a Christian spirit in dealing with differences.
    I too agree that the school is still taking a strong stand for the Lord, and would consider it for my children if I had any to send. I have friends who graduated from MBBC who are questioning the doctrinal soundness of the school, and this bothers me greatly, as these friends are falling farther and farther in to the KJVO realm of things. They are considering sending their daughter to another college next year because of the instruction/criticism of people like David Cloud against Larry Oats and MBBC.

    AVL1984
     
    #15 AVL1984, Aug 27, 2004
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    It is so sad to see the heresy (word used advisedly, to speak of true heretical belief) of the extreme KJVO position and how divisive and destructive it is.

    Satan must be thrilled to see godly men like Dr. Oats villified over such an issue. I was best man at Larry & Colleen's wedding and count them as friends. He and I also share the distinction of the first two graduate degrees from Maranatha (I graduate ahead of him - "G"riffin came before "O"ats alphabetically!!)
     
    #16 Dr. Bob, Aug 27, 2004
  17. Dr. Bob

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    I can only hazzard an opinion. Remember "moderate" = expound all Biblical doctrine but will NOT expose error and compromise or those who believe such. I remember visiting with Dr. Lee Roberson about 1971 or so and hearing him say he will STAND for the truth, but will not be party with those TEARING DOWN others who do not take the exact same stand on every issue.

    So TTU was separated from liberalism and from worldliness, but not actively condemning all the "evils" out there. Roberson was strong in Southwide Baptist Fellowship, had ties and friendships with the SBC, etc.

    Think that openly-expressed attitude is why Dr. Dollar shifted them to the moderate camp.

    And that is not such a bad place to be!
     
    #17 Dr. Bob, Aug 27, 2004
  18. Baptist in Richmond

    Baptist in Richmond Active Member

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    Where would Crown College be categorized?
    What about Pensacola Christian?
     
    #18 Baptist in Richmond, Aug 29, 2004
  19. LRL71

    LRL71 New Member

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    Seems like the KJV-only issue in IFB Fundamentalism has already caused a 'split' within IFB colleges & seminaries.

    Crown College is KJV-only (see its Doctrinal Statement at http://www.goforthecrown.com/statement.cfm ) as well as Pensacola Christian. These are two examples of IFB schools that have moved into the KJV-only camp. I would say that they could be categorized by some as being 'militant', but if they examined their position biblically, they are not even moderate!
     
    #19 LRL71, Aug 29, 2004
  20. Bro.Bill

    Bro.Bill New Member

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    If we consider KJVO somewhat heretical,how does that make anybody militant?
    I am KJV preferred 1 and some 3.I beleive in calling sin what it is sin.I beleive in pointing out heresy and error.But beating people up is not my style.I will instead separate myself from them.Where does that put me.
     
    #20 Bro.Bill, Aug 30, 2004
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