Military or Market-Driven Empire Building: 1950-2008

Discussion in 'Politics' started by poncho, May 5, 2008.

  1. poncho

    poncho
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    Introduction

    -- From the middle of the 19th century but especially after the Second World War, two models of empire building competed on a world scale: One predominantly based on military conquests, involving direct invasions, proxy invading armies and subsidized separatist military forces; and the other predominantly based on large-scale, long-term economic penetration via a combination of investments, loans, credits and trade in which ‘market’ power and the superiority (greater productivity) in the means of production led to the construction of a virtual empire.


    SOURCE


    Not yer typical leftie vs rightie stuff but an interesting read none the less. Least I think so.
     
  2. poncho

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    Was I right...is this a good article or what?
     
  3. betterthanideserve

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    A pretty lenghty article but well worth the read....
    Thanks
     
  4. poncho

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  5. windcatcher

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    Awesome material and implications.

    I noticed the brief mention of depleted uranium. (Sounds 'innocent' but it is lethal! ) It is 'depleted' of the uranium which is useful to fission and reactors, but it is still uranium and emits alpha, beta, and gamma particles of radioactivity: It is considered 'a waste' of nuclear industry, but very heavy and resistant to penetration by conventional arms.... useful in the amored Abrams tank, and its heaviness and ability to burn with a torch like flame, able to penetrate heavily armored bunkers, equipment, and sand banks: When burned, it forms dust of varying degrees and can enter and remain in the body through the methods of inhalation, ingestion, cuts, and embedded schrapnel. Because of the low emmission of rays, a geiger counter must be held in close proximity to the source in order to detect contamination: This, however, can be dangerously misleading, because a general sweep may not detect the presence of contaminant.... and the air borne particulates inhaled or ingested without knowledge of exposure risk. Great Britian, the United States and Israel, use du in their armour shielding and also in their explosives, i.e. anti-tank missiles.

    (I did a search, recently, on depleted uranium in interest of Gulf War syndrome and recent news that over 600,000 tons of du contaminated sand is being transferred from Mississippi docks to missile silos in Idaho: It is the contamination removal from a base in Kuwait, Darhur (sp/) I believe.)

    We occupy or manipulate other governments and their people. We accuse them of having WMD, which, BTW, include biological, chemical, and nuclear warfare.... and our own government furnished purchases of arms, chemicals, and even 55 gallon drums of unatenuated anthrax (not a 'laboratory' test quantity by any means), to 'set up' the enemy. The nuclear weapons we never found in Iraq: But we have bombed their villages, exposed their children, and contaminated their soil permanently with our depleted uranium....... if that isn't terrorism, what is?

    How can we call this war "Iraqi Freedom" when we have permanently contaminated their soil.... and probably their water.... and doomed their people to genetic deformities, disabilities and cancers for generations to come. How can people be free in a land which we've poisoned and contaminated with our arsenals? ........ And how can we say we support our troops, and be ignorant of their own exposure and risk, and have them return and not receive the medical support and treatment which they deserve for exposures to contaminants. In the first Gulf War, we lost less than 200 men during combat: More than 200,000 are suffering illness and disabilities as the result of du, anti nerve gas drugs, systemic poisoning by dog collars, and innoculations. As many as 80,000 soldiers from the first Gulf War are already dead. For those who would like to know please google and watch, or purchase the dvd "Beyond Treason". It also has an accompanying disc that tracks and documents the official records regarding the allegations which I've made (all but the movement of contaminated soil through our ports... a recent and evidently news silenced).
     
    #5 windcatcher, May 7, 2008
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  6. NiteShift

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    According to UNSCOM, Iraq had produced 19,000 liters of botulinum, 8,400 litres of anthrax at the Al Hakam factory complex. They produced these agents themselves from different strains that they obtained from around the world. US samples were provided primarily by a non-profit company, the American Type Culture Collection. This company has the US's largest collection of cultured diseases, and provides them for institutions worldwide, and which are useful in public health programs. This was, and is, entirely legal.

    *

    As For Prof. James Petras, who wrote this article, it’s all about Zionism. Everything’s about Zionism and he thinks that the Jews rule the US. He has written countless articles and books on the subject and, surprise surprise, is often featured on David Duke’s website.

    As he says, "The first Bush Presidency assumed the military road to empire building but tried to avoid the high costs of occupation and colonization. The Israeli colonial model had to await the Zionist occupation of policy-making positions in later [US] administrations."

    From his other articles -
    He sees CIA plots in Chavez's Venezuela.
    He calls Gen Petraeus "Zionism’s military poodle".
    He defends Rev Wright’s rantings as "brilliant analysis and dissection of the immoral means in pursuit of the great crimes of our epoch."

    Awesome material indeed.
     
  7. poncho

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    So? What's your point? Are you saying that a person can't have views different from you and be credible? I'm not thrilled with alot things about this guy either but now that he's brought the subject up...are we a militarized empire like he claims or aren't we and if we are is that the best we can do with our "super power".
     
    #7 poncho, May 7, 2008
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  8. NiteShift

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    Point is that he sees the US and Israel as the evil-doers of the world. It colors everything that he writes, and so I would take his conclusions with a bucket of salt. I am sure that those who despise the 'neocons' would react in the same way to anything written by, say, Paul Wolfowitz for example. Practically any point he had to make would be disregarded as tainted.

    I don't think we are an empire at all. We haven't colonized anywhere since about 1900, and we subsequently left when we were asked to leave. We have used military power sometimes for good, sometimes not.

    Here is a success story, (though I hate to give Clinton the credit) -

    [​IMG]

    THIS IS A KOSOVAR MUSLIM - LINK
     
  9. hillclimber1

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    I read it and decided I have neither the time nor inclination to dissect it. But in reading NiteShift's assessment, I fully agree.
    Excellent points NiteShift
     
  10. NiteShift

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    Thank you hillclimber. A man of discernment :thumbs:
     
  11. Ivon Denosovich

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    I'm pretty much with NiteShift on this one too... it's a little far out.
     
  12. billwald

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    DU would be great for sailboat keels. Much heavier than Pb. A bulb keel would displace much less water.
     
  13. poncho

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    Looks like your getting a little consensus there NS. Good for you.

    No I read what Wolfowitz has to say. I read what they all say I turn my garbage filter on and dive right in and read it. I need more than half the story to make my mind up and I know enough about history and propaganda that I can weed through the chaff to get the grain. I even bought the book "True Patriot" written by two liberals because I was curious to see if a collectivist could actually be a true patriot. I found out they can't.

    I read all the books and documents I can get my hands on. Consensus is made up of to many glittering generalities, political bias and feel good group together collectivist stuff for my tastes.

    How does that work again now if someone has a view different from your shall we say pro israel viewpoint his opinion means nuts? Have you ever considered that your viewpoint may taint everything you say or write or think?

    Or doesn't it work both ways like that?
     
    #13 poncho, May 8, 2008
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  14. poncho

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    Maybe the U.S. and Israel are the evil doers of the world NS. How would you know any different? Not by only listening to pentagon propagandists posing as "military analysts" on the tube and other consensus people you share the same glowing generalities with by any chance right? Or viewing the fake news stories the government and complicit media aired with 2 billion dollars taken from our pockets. Certainly not by listening to the people insinuating and screaming anti semite traitor and "pacifist" at anyone who dares to be critical of Israeli and/or "U.S.' policies that's for sure.

    I think people get so caught up in being loyal and patritotic they forget to be patriots and what they are supposed to be loyal to.

    The war on terror is now admittedly a hoax aimed at destablizing Arab nations to "protect israel" Douglas Feith's words not mine. I've been saying it all along while the consensus crew clucked and cackled and now even the Iraq war perps themselves are begining to back me up back me up on it. Know why?

    Because I've been reading their stuff all along.

    We and I use the term loosely have no need or urge to colonize our tools of choice are military intimidation and economic isolation and of course everybodies favorite..."shock and awe" for any nation who doesn't toe the line...our line.

    Who needs colonies?

    Sometimes not is an understatement. We've armed everyone this month to fight against everyone we armed last month. We've armed and recruited terrorists (freedom fighters) from Afighanistan to Zimbabwe and back again. Watched as the IMF plundered whole economies in the thrid world. The list is to long to try and post tonight of our accomplishments. Why? Because "we" translated to corptocracy have global interests to protect and control.

    We as in you and I are just cash cows to the global corptocracy or Govcorp Inc. as I lovingly refer to it. Mooooo.

    Sounds like imperial control to me.

    Neocolonialism

    Turns out there's more than one type of colonialism.

    Anyway I try to study government not democrats and republicans and other groups. That's probably where our wires get crossed.
     
    #14 poncho, May 8, 2008
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  15. NiteShift

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    Well, of couse most of us read opposing views. I know that I do. We do it and often come to conclusions very different from your own. But as you said, you turn on your garbage filter, and that's what I do with characters like Professor Petras.

    Yep I’ve considered that. We all have our bias.

    I could ask you the same. How is it that when you quote articles by the paranoid set that it’s more reliable, more worthy of our attention than the less extreme sources? Because they have posted a video on YouTube?

    It’s not as if being critical of the US or Israel is some sort of daring or bold stance. Everybody’s doing it. Everyone from University professors, to pastors, to Hollywood millionaires. They haven’t suffered at all for it as far as I can see.

    Those are not Douglas Feith’s words. Those are the words and conclusions of the blog article that you linked to.

    Oh, Neo-Colonialism. A word invented in the late 20th century to describe big bad guys like the US. Ok.

    And I commend you for it.




     
  16. NiteShift

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    Awesome material?
     
  17. poncho

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    Exactly you turn off "characters like" I don't I simply tune out the personality of the characters to get to the information. Big difference.

    There wouldn't be so many clueless lefties and righties chasing each other around in circles paying no mind to the global control grid being fashoined around them if we didn't.

    Let's see I answered this question before you asked it so this must be the part where you toss out some casual demonization and a couple glittering generalities for effect. Does this stuff ever end with you NS? C'mon man.

    This is a powerful propaganda technique though NS I don't blame you for using it so often. I would think though at this stage of the game throwing garbage in the groceries wouldn't be needed by "debunkers" with all the answers such as yourself. It may keep others (like your consensus buddies) from looking at all the evidence because some small portion of it may be faulty or nutty. It's kind of cheap and sleazy for a guy on the up and up like you to keep using imho though.

    That's all about to change. Remember I told you so when you finally realize what's been going on right under your nose. Mmmmkay?

    http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s110-1959



    After reading about all the neocon documents and memos that aren't national securitied out of sight these are my conlusions also. It's hard not to come to the same conclusion after reading them all. It's not like they were trying to hide the fact that terrorism has little or nothing to do with the "war on terror" and domestic police state legislation. They fairly well brag about it.

    People know this now. All the poisoning the well you can throw out isn't going to change that NS. But do keep trying. It is sort of entertaining.


    A hundred years of history can't be washed away with a wisecrack. But I see you had to give it try anyway. Relying on the readers ignorance again? Shame on you. NS :rolleyes:

    And I commend you on your use of propaganda techinques. I think you rely on just two or three to much but that's cool it simplifies things for me when I dissect your posts. :thumbs:
     
    #17 poncho, May 9, 2008
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  18. NiteShift

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    Uh huh. And that, right there, is the problem. You claimed that Douglas Feith made a statement that he did not make. The statement was only the blogger's conclusion, and as you say, your own. Nothing more.
     
  19. poncho

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    Okay it looks like I did. I take it back.

    Do you want to rebut any of the other points now or answer any questions? Or ask any questions? We still have more pages to post on. Now that you've "debunked" me again that's out of the way now so I'd kind of like to try talking about the history and evidence...if you don't mind. Is that cool with you?
     
    #19 poncho, May 10, 2008
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  20. NiteShift

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    Ok I appreciate that.

    Well I'm not up to writing an essay on the subject, but I will say again that the US has used force sometimes wisely and sometimes not. Not so wisely, for instance in the Philippines. But as I pointed out before, we did shut down our bases there when asked to do so. Same with Panama; we didn't have to leave, but did when we were asked.

    Two times in the 20th century we helped our allies to liberate Europe. Most, maybe not all, would agree this was a good thing.

    We prevented the Communists from taking control of the entire Korean peninsula in the 50's. Some argue we had no business doing it, and some S. Koreans resent us. But you can't argue the fact that ROK is now one of the wealthiest, most stable nations in the world. And looking at communist N.Korea, there is just no comparison.

    Earlier in this thread I provided a look at Kosovo, which is doing well after the US & NATO intervention there. And the people there are grateful.

    And I would argue that Iraq is turning the corner too.

    So I do not agree that America is the source of evil in the world. Results are mixed, but in general the intentions have been good. I know you have a very different view, but that is mine.
     

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