Millenial Exclusion, the gospel of fear

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Jul 22, 2007.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    If you believe in ME, then your so-called gospel is more about fear than promise and assurance.



    This is the "good news" of the kingdom? So what's the bad news? ;)

    http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesas.htm

     
  2. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    I would hardly say that it is "more" about fear, but fear was certainly okay for some NT writers.

    Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.

    But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

    So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.

    Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, "Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

    Brethren, sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.

    (As an aside wonder what this message of "salvation" was to those that were saved?)

    Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;

    Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.

    Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling.

    and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.

    So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

    Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.

    Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

    Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Now certainly we shouldn't stay there as we should move on to love as I John tells us that love cast out fear, but love is something learned not instantaneous. We have to start with fear. At least Paul said he persuaded men with fear, so I'm not sure why that is a terrible idea today.
     
  3. Martin

    Martin
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    I think that the Millennial Exclusion doctrine is antinomianism and not a doctrine of fear. At the end of the day those who promote this doctrine are promoting the idea that a "believer" can live in sin and unbelief and still enter heaven. O, the person may lose out on some reward and have to be excluded from some things (etc) but at the end of the day the person is still saved. It is easy believism. Where does this idea come from? I think this idea is an exaggeration of the doctrine of discipline and the believer’s judgment for rewards.



    ==Point of fact: Hodges does not state that he lives in fear of this happening. The above statement is a gross exaggeration of the commentary Hodges gives. The most "fearful" statement Hodges makes is, "What such Christians undergo, the author had shown, is severe judgment" (Pg810, Heb 12:5-8).

    Btw, I am not defending Zane Hodges (I have already posted several times about my past with his teachings). I know you also had mentioned that Charles Stanley believes this doctrine (Millennial Exclusion). In his book "Eternal Security" he certainly did promote it. Does he continue to promote it? I don't hear him promote it anymore so I don't know if he continues to believe that position (I know some of his positions seem to have shifted since he wrote that book).

    The most popular teacher/preacher who holds these ideas is Tony Evans.
     
  4. npetreley

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    Yes, ME teaches you can abandon everything and still be saved. However, have you noticed who promotes ME? If you could profile the people on this board who promote ME, would you say they're preaching antinomianism? I wouldn't. I see a pattern much more akin to free-willism and legalism.

    Also, just consider what we're calling it. ME. It's not LS (Licentious Salvation) or Eternal Inclusion. It's not about what you can get away with. It's about being excluded.

    .
     
    #4 npetreley, Jul 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2007
  5. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    We are taught in scripture to fear God (Matt 10:28). But saints will have no part in the wrath of God (1Thes 5:9). And Saints are not able to walk away from Christ (Romans 8:14)
     
  6. Amy.G

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    Martin, are you saying that Tony Evans believes ME, or are you saying he believes in eternal security? Can you post a link? I have always liked what I've heard Tony Evans preach, but I may change my mind. :)
     
  7. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    And being called "saint" is based on lifestyle, not based on whether or not one is saved.

    BTW, the only ones who should really fear are the ones who try to figure out just how close to the line they can get without going over.

    Oh, and the ones who have believed the lie that there is no accountability with no possibility of severe consequences for saved people.

    Oh, and to get saved, it couldn't be any easier: Believe. Plus nothing.
     
  8. Martin

    Martin
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    ==I have always, and still do, enjoy the preaching ministry of Tony Evans. However we must understand that he comes from a background that is very much in line with Zane Hodges. In fact Tony Evans dedicates his book "Totally Saved" to Zane Hodges. What is more, Evan's book makes many of the same arguments made by Hodges in his books such as "The Gospel Under Siege", "Grace In Eclipse", and "Absolutely Free". You can also read Tony Evans book on prophecy titled "The Best is Yet To Come". Aside from his teaching of millinnial exclusion, and a very weird idea of hell, it is a good book. However it is very clear in this book that Evan's believes in millinnial exclusion (see pgs 156-157).
     
  9. TCGreek

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    1. I good analysis of a painful subject.

    2. In every age of the church, we will have to contend with false teachings (Jd 3).

    3. The Truth War by John MacArthur is a timely reminder.

    4. Thanks for raising our awareness.
     
    #9 TCGreek, Jul 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2007
  10. LeBuick

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    A believer with unbelief??? :BangHead:
    Righteousness sinning??? :BangHead:

    What if there was no law, could we sin then? Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Kind of like with Abraham and those guys, could our faith be counted for righteousness?
     
  11. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
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    The two are not exclusive at all. In fact, the opposite is true. I've never met someone who believes the doctrine of the Kingdom that Jesus and John came preaching that did not believe in the security of spiritual salvation.
     
  12. TCGreek

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    1. This takes us right back into the heart of the LS debate.

    2. I like Dr. Evans, but I am surprise to learn that he is promoting that false teaching.

    3. The book of Jude is a great rebuttal of ME; it is as if Jude anticipated this sort of thing.

    4. Well, it seems like there was a semblance of it: "Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (Jude 3-4, ESV, emphasis mine).

    5. Isn't that what they are doing, "denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ?"
     
  13. TCGreek

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    1. There's a healthy fear, and there's an unhealthy fear.

    2. I think we need to make that distinction.

    3. A closer look at the Scriptures you have quoted will reveal that.
     
  14. LeBuick

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    Give that man a cookie!!!

    1 Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

    2 Timothy 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
     
  15. Amy.G

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    Well, they certainly are saying that you can do that and still receive eternal life.
     
  16. TCGreek

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    I certainly will like to know where Dr. Stanley is on that issue today.
     
  17. TCGreek

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    1. I think we need to have the kind of spiritual backbone to call out false teaching for what it really is, false teaching.

    2. That is exactly what ME is, false teaching.

    3. Here is something that I don't understand, Why these new crop of pastors/professors/authors think they have arrived and everyone else was wrong all along.

    4. Whether we are talking about the Emergent community, the New Perspective on Paul, ME or any other aberration of the true gospel.

    5. We need to contend for the once for all delivered faith (Jd 3).
     
  18. Amy.G

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    One of my objections has also been that the believers of this false teaching (ME) say that God has revealed it to them, yet He has not revealed it to me. In fact, I believe He has told me that it is false. But, I guess that's the way it has always been with with false religions. They think everyone else has been wrong down through the centuries and they have received some new "light" from God.
     
  19. J. Jump

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    Once again you go to the Scriptures and once again you prove our point for us. Notice what this text SAYS.

    Jude said he wanted to write about the common salvation. That would be salvation by grace through faith that they all had in common. However instead he was moved to write about something else.

    He is writing about contending for the faith. Wonder what in the world he could be talking about this "faith" that is apart from common salvation.

    Yet another Scripture supporting what we have been saying.
     
  20. J. Jump

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    I would like to see some quotes from Charles Stanley and Tony Evans that the believe in the gospel of the kingdom as taught in Scripture. I have not found any evidence of that in listening to them and a little research that I have done.

    I too would be interested in seeing some this.

    From what I have found they believe in the idea of postive and negative rewards, but I've never seen where they have taught anyone can be excluded from the kingdom.

    And I've never seen that from anything of Hodges either.
     

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