millinial questions

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by menageriekeeper, Mar 31, 2008.

  1. menageriekeeper

    menageriekeeper
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    Okay, I'm at it again. I've been thinking. :rolleyes:

    In the thread "new world vs old world" (http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=48516 ) the author makes mention of a 1000 year reign of satan (unless I really read something backward). This was the first time I had heard mention of such. Anyone want to clarify this for me? Cause I thought Satan was already the ruler of this earth.

    A few other rambling questions that have been rattling around for a while:

    If Satan is ruler of this earth now, what happens when he is bound for the 1000 years?

    If Christ is literally ruling from Jerusalem during this time, why is Satan loosed from the pit? (I mean really, God knows what he is going to get up to, so why not keep him bound)

    Lastly, how much are we really told about the condition of the earth and it's inhabitants during this time? (cause I'm thinking after the defeat of the AntiChrist and all the plagues that come with the tribulation there aren't gonna be a whole lot of humans left)

    Feel free to answer whichever question catches your eye. :D
     
  2. PrmtvBptst1832

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    Premillennialism is one of those "Jewish fables" about which Scripture warns us. Christ is now seated on the throne of His kingdom and will come to judge the living and the dead at the conclusion of history. Simple, huh?
     
  3. Allan

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    There is no 1000 year reign of Satan. I don't know what this particular poster holds to but it isn't dispensational view I've ever heard of. Also there isn't any scripture which even alludes to such, so I am assuming it might be a typo or just that the poster didn't fully elaborate on what they were meaning.

    He can't rule or influence :)

    This one isn't as hard as it might appear. Those who were raptured and the dead in Christ all have glorified bodies at this point. Yet there will still be those who come through the great Trib alive. At this point in which the literal and manifested Reign of Christ ensues at which point death and disease are no more (as well as other things but you get what I'm saying) and all those who came through the Trib will live forever. NOW, those believers who came through the GT (great Trib) will have children but these children are no more born saved than you or I. They to must choose whom they will serve. And then there is their children, and their childrens children, et.. Satan will be loosed at the end of the age to gather all those who in their hearts did not choose Christ even though they lived according to Christ's reigning rule.

    If we will all be believers at this time why do you suppose Christ will reign with a 'rod of iron'? This septer is symbolic of that which is used to strike that it will smash to pieces what it is extened toward. The purpose of the iron rod is intrinsic to material it was created from. It is unbending, unyeilding, and strong.

    The people who will follow Satan will be the children of those believers who first entered into the Mil Kingdom, and will be of those who lived during the reign of Christ but will not desire Christ and therefore Satan gathers them together for one last stand.

    True (and there isn't an massive amounts of info), but give that population a thousand years where by no death or disease and 'potentially' they might be able to bear children to a much older age. But even if not with no disease and Christ to heal the nations and it's people not one child will die and they will grow to reproduce. How many people do think might be alive by the end of a thousand years? :) (I think there will quite an abundance)
     
  4. Allan

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    At least you acknowledge Premill was around since the early church, and for good reason since it was believed by them to.

    Notice he didn't say 'no', or that it already is established, but that the exact 'time' of when He will 'restore' it is not what they are to be concerned with. It is the Fathers for that is in His power. They knew the time was coming though and Jesus didn't deny it nor did He say the restored kingdom was already here.
     
    #4 Allan, Mar 31, 2008
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  5. menageriekeeper

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    Okay good. I thought I was really lacking in knowledge. :eek:

    It's been a long time since I've studied any of this so (match the questions to the same colored part of the quote please):

    I really thought that our glorified bodies didn't appear until after the last battle with Satan.

    I understand about the idea of some surviving the Trib and sort of know where the scripture for this is located, but, where do find that there will be no death or disease on earth during the Millinial Kingdom? Especially death as the end battle with Satan will certainly destroyed those he has decieved, right? (not right?)

    These humans left on earth, why do you believe they will all be believers? Is there scripture that supports this?

    Still, why does God bother with this? If He's here why can't Christ just declare them to be of "reprobate mind" upon their rejection of Him and execute them without having to involve Satan at all?

    Feel free to point me at the pertinant scriptures/reading materials and I can look them up for myself if you don't have the time or inclination to answer all this. End times study isn't something I'm really up on. Guess you can tell. :eek:
     
  6. skypair

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    menagerie,

    I have been reading Three Critical Questions about the Last Times By David Lewis and it occurred to me that from Adam to the cross was the kingdom of man (~3000 yrs), Cross to MK is the kingdom of the Spirit (~2000 yrs), the MK is the kingdom of Christ and Spirit (1000 yrs), and the New Earth for eternity is the kingdom of God, Christ, and Spirit (Eternity).

    Can you follow that? I envision that Adam to the cross, man was ruled by 1) a progression of "fleshly" rules and 2) various interventions by God (by God Himself, by the "Angel of the Lord," or by the Spirit) as corrective measures (flood, Babel, Egypt, etal. -- some would say "dispensational" corrections).

    The era we live in now, the Holy Spirit rules an "invisible" kingdom -- many refer to it as the "invisible church" in that not even everyone who goes to church is a true citizen of the kingdom. However, there are no appearances of Christ or God until Christ returns. Christ "all in all."

    In the MK, Christ/Messiah will rule 1000 years in a visible, every person on earth kingdom but it is not yet a kingdom exclusively made up of glorified beings. The Holy Spirit will indwell believers as He does now. There will still be sin and death.

    The New Earth is the kingdom where God-Spirit-Christ rule glorified soul-spirit-body citizens and no others exist. No sin -- no death. God "all in all."

    So do you see the progression? Kingdoms of Man -- Spirit -- Christ -- God? Perhaps that will help with your question re: kingdoms.

    skypair
     
    #6 skypair, Apr 1, 2008
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  7. Brother Bob

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    Somebody, anybody, please give scripture where Christ will reign on "earth".

    Also, please provide scripture where they will be bearing children, saved or unsaved.

    BBob,
     
  8. Grasshopper

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    There are some, not me, who believe the MK is described in Is. 65-66:

    Isa 65:20 There is not thence any more a suckling of days, And an aged man who doth not complete his days, For the youth a hundred years old dieth, And the sinner, a hundred years old, is lightly esteemed.
    Isa 65:21 And they have built houses, and inhabited, And planted vineyards, and eaten their fruit.
    Isa 65:22 They do not build, and another inhabit, They do not plant, and another eat, For as the days of a tree are the days of My people, And the work of their hands wear out do My chosen ones.
    Isa 65:23 They labour not for a vain thing, Nor do they bring forth for trouble, For the seed of the blessed of Jehovah are they, And their offspring with them.
    Isa 65:24 And it hath come to pass, They do not yet call, and I answer, They are yet speaking, and I hear.
    Isa 65:25 Wolf and lamb do feed as one, And a lion as an ox eateth straw, As to the serpent--dust is its food, They do no evil, nor destroy, In all My holy mountain, said Jehovah!
     
  9. skypair

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    Puleeeze, Bob. You're "in the business!" You KNOW the scriptures even if you deny them!

    Please tell us why you reject them.

    skypair
     
  10. Rex77

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    Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    Re 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    Isa:65
    17 ¶ For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
    18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
    19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
    20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
    21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    And?? Where is the throne of Christ on the earth scripture. I don't see it.

    BBob,
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    So, you are asking me to answer my own question.......:)

    I like PrmtvBptst1832's answer best.

    BBob,
     
    #12 Brother Bob, Apr 1, 2008
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  13. skypair

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    Rex77,

    Just had to notice that you are from Sydney. I had a chance to visit in 1976. Visited the Gold Coast via Amberly AB near Brisbane. We refueled an American "Bicentennial" painted F-15 on Air Force demonstration flights. Well, they did the demonstration and we just lounged around the beach for 9 days! :laugh: WOW! BEAUTIFUL!!

    We had an opportunity that we didn't know about to get down to Sydney via C-130 -- a daily run back then. I still wonder what that would have been like every time I see a Travel Channel tour down under. I hope you are a missionary and not just another "slack jaw." :laugh:

    skypair
     
  14. Rex77

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    31 ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


    Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    Acts:2
    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    Act 7:49Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?

    Act 7:51¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

    Rev 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    Rev 3:22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Is Christ not your King now??


    1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1Th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    BBob,
     
    #15 Brother Bob, Apr 1, 2008
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  16. Jerome

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    Bob, the early English Baptists were persecuted for believing what Scripture says about the Millennial Kingdom. Take for example, Benjamin Keach, put in the pillory in 1664 for daring to print his catechism A Child's Instructor.

    From the trial record:

    Clerk reads [from Keach's catechism for children]. "Question: How then shall it go with the saints? Answer: Oh very well! it is the Day that they have long'd for: then they shall hear that Sentence, Come ye blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you: And so shall they reign with Christ on the Earth a thousand Years, &c."
    Judge: This is contrary to the Creed in the Book of Common-Prayer, and is an old Heresy, which was cast out of the Church a thousand Years ago, and was likewise condemned by the Council of Constance about five hundred Years ago, and hath lain dead ever since, till now this Rascal hath revived it.

    ....

    Clerk: Also in another place thou hast wickedly and maliciously composed A Short Confession of Faith, in which thou hast affirmed thus, concerning the second Person in the Blessed Trinity, in these plain English words: "I also believe that he rose again the third Day from the Dead, and ascended into Heaven, and there now sitteth at the right hand of God the Father; and from thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be the Judge of the Quick and the Dead."
    Judge: This is contrary to our Creed: for whereas he saith, "From thence he shall come again at the appointed time of the Father, to reign personally upon the Earth, and to be Judge both of the Quick and the Dead," our Creed only saith, "From thence he shall come to judge both the Quick and the Dead."

    ....

    Judge: Benjamin Keach, you are here convicted of writing and publishing a seditious and scandalous Book, for which the Court's Judgment is this, and the Court doth award, That you shall go to Gaol for a Fortnight, without Bail or Manprise; and the next Saturday to stand upon the Pillory at Ailsbury for the space of two Hours, from Eleven of the clock to One, with a Paper upon your head with this Inscription, "For writing, printing, and publishing a schismatical Book, intitled, The Child's Instructor, or a New and Early Primmer." And the next Thursday to stand in the same manner, and for the same time, in the Market of Winslow; and there your Book shall be openly burnt before your Face by the common Hangman, in disgrace of you and your Doctrine. And you shall forfeit to the King's Majesty the sum of 20 l. and shall remain in Gaol until you find sureties for your good Behavior and Appearance at the next Assizes, there to renounce your Doctrine, and make such publick submission as shall be injoined you. Take him away, Keeper.
    Keach: I hope I shall never renounce those Truths which I have written in that Book.

    ---A Complete Collection of State-Trials, and Proceedings upon High-Treason, and other Crimes and Misdemeanors; From the Reign of King Richard II. to the Reign of King George II.


    Yes, Benjamin Keach, persecuted by the Church of England in 1664 for standing up for the Bible's Millennial Kingdom teaching, is the prominent Particular Baptist pastor who signed the 1689 London Baptist Confession.
     
    #16 Jerome, Apr 1, 2008
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  17. Brother Bob

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    Well, the judge was the one who was right as far as I can see, The millenium was ruled a spiritual happening by St Augustine in the 3 century.

    The millenium was considered heretic until John Darby and a few others brought it up in the 17th century along with D L Moody, who brought it to the States and the Baptist took it and run with it.
    In the first Century and before and after, the Millenium was considered to be a time that the lusts of the flesh would be fulfilled. They finally removed that part of it but as far as being literally, it was considered to be spiritual reign for around 16 hundred years by most of the Church. The Church made it fine until John Darby and others came along in the 17th century and began to preach it to be literal reign.

    Some of the History on the Millenium. Everyone is entitled to their own belief about the millenium. If I turn out to be wrong, then I will just enjoy the reign. If I turn out to be right, I will meet the Lord in the air, to everly be with Him.

    John Calvin (1536)
    "But a little later there followed the chiliasts, who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years. Now their fiction is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation. And the Apocalypse, from which they undoubtedly drew a pretext for their error does not support them. For the number "one thousand" (Rev. 20:4) does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."

    C.H. Spurgeon (1865)
    "Those who wish to see the arguments upon the unpopular side of the great question at issue, will find them here; this is probably one of the ablest of the accessible treatises from that point of view. We cannot agree with Mr. Young, neither can we refute him. It might tax the ingenuity of the ablest prophetical writers to solve all the difficulties here started, and perhaps it would be unprofitable to attempt the task.

    Augustine (354-430) viewed the thousand years of Revelation 20 not as some special future time but "the period beginning with Christ's first coming," that is, the age of the Christian church. Throughout this age, the saints reign with Christ—not in the fullness of the coming kingdom prepared for those blessed by God the Father, but "in some other and far inferior way." This position, often called "amillennial," became the view of most Christians in the West, including the Reformers, for almost 1,500 years."

    Daniel Whitby (1703)
    "The doctrine of the Millennium was never generally received in the church of Christ " (Daniel Whitby, "A Treatise on the True Millennium," in Patrick, Lowth, Arnald, Whitby, and Lowman, Commentary on the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament, 4 vols. (Philadelphia, PA: Carey and Hart, 1845), vol. 4, p. 1118.)
    "The doctrine of the millennium was not the general doctrine of the primitive church from the times of the apostles to the Nicene council . . . for then it could have made no schism in the church, as Dionysius of Alexandria saith it did." (Ibid., pp. 1122-23. He cites Dionysius 5:6; Eusebius, Eccl. Hist. 7:24.)

    Philip Schaff (1877)
    "Though millenialism was supressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects." (Schaff's History, pg. 299 )

    J. Marcellus Kik (1971)
    "The premillenialist, however, maintains as a cardinal and fundamental tenet of his system of eschatology that the throne of glory is an earthly throne set up in the material city of Jerusalem. The temporal throne of David is to be reconstructed in Jerusalem... As a matter of fact there is not one passage in the New Testament which gives definite information of a personal reign of Christ upon a temporal throne in the material city of Jerusalem! What seems to be hidden to the apostles have been revealed by uninspired men." (An Eschatology of Victory, 171)

    Alexander Brown
    "Let us not forget that once in the Church's history it was the common belief that John's 1000 years were gone. Dorner bears witness that the Church up to Constantine understood by Antichrist chiefly the heathen state, and to some extent unbelieving Judaism (System iv.,390). Victorinus, a bishop martyred in 303, reckoned the 1000 years from the birth of Christ.
    Augustine wrote his magnum opus 'the City of God' with a sort of dim perception of the identity of the Christian Church with the new Jerusalem. Indeed we know that the 1000 years were held to be running by the generations previous to that date, and so intense was their faith that the universal Church was in a ferment of excitement about and shortly after 1000 A.D. in expectation of the outbreak of Satanic influence. Wickliff, the reformer, believed that Satan bad been unbound at the end of the 1000 years, and was intensely active in his day. That this period in Church history is past, or now runs its course, has been the belief of a roll of eminent men too long to be chronicled on our pages of Augustine, Luther, Bossuet, Cocceius, Grotius, Hammond, Hengstenberg, Keil, Moses Stuart, Philippi, Maurice." (Alexander Brown, Great Day of the Lord, p. 216.)

    BBob,
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Apr 1, 2008
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  18. menageriekeeper

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    Bob, if it's a spiritual reign, when do you see it as occuring? Currently? Or at some point in the future say, after the Anti Christ is defeated?
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    My personal belief is that it is over and satan is loosed now. In the end, it will be a short work the Lord will do, He will receive us in the air and pass judgement on the devil, his angels, those who worketh abomination and maketh a lie, and whosoever's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

    I just believe we will come out of the grave, already changed with a glorious body and meet the Lord in the air.

    He said, I go away to prepare a place for you and I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

    I plan on going to Heaven to be with the Lord myself, where I have a mansion waiting for me.

    BBob,
     
  20. Rex77

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    ------------
    Act 7:49Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?

    That is the Fathers throne in heaven where Christ is sitting on the fathers right hand, Christ's throne is yet to be established on earth.

    ------------
    Rev 3:21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    This verse just says what I said above.
    -------------

    Is Christ not your King now??

    No he is my high priest NOW, He was Prophet, he is our coming King.

    ----------------------------

    1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Yes at the rapture we will meet him in the clouds and be with him for ever
    that means going with him to the judgment seat of Christ, the marriage of
    the Lamb in heaven, then to earth to judge the nations and set up HIS
    kingdom.
    ---------------------
     

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