millinial questions

Amen, Sister Linda64 - you are so RIGHT ON!

 

It is very strange that men know more than what Jesus knew. He did not teach what you are teaching. He never mentioned it period. I wonder why???? Men have been speaking of "end times" long before Jesus came, and long after He left. Hardly any agree with the other. There are so many different ways wrote of how the "end times" will be, that no wonder the world is confused.
I say, listen and read what Jesus taught. He left out the Millenium and for good reason, It is passed and not yet to come. Jesus told us exactly how end times will be. Some of you believe that there will be "animal" sacrifices. Some believe there will be another time to repent, which would be repentance after death. None of you take the fact that only the "souls" of them that were beheaded for the word of God, lived and reigned (past tense) with Christ a thousand years.

New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia

The teaching of Christ is not millenarian. In Mark 1.15, indeed, He announces that the Kingdom of God is at hand; but He knows nothing of any provisory Kingdom to be founded by Him, or of any difference between His own and His Father’s

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc07/Page_375.html

1 Mark: 15

15: And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Christ disagreed with you.

I accept the word of Christ over all others.

Rev. 16:

12: And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

The Armageddon is the sixth and seventh vial of the wrath of God, and John the Baptist said "who hath warned thee to flee the wrath of God". I don't plan on being there.

BBob,

 

Skypair: //Let's get back to talking about the MK temple in Ezek 40-48. Where is it? When was it? Why the sacrifices?//

It will be built by the Antichrist between the pre-tribulation rapture event (rapture following a resurrection of the church age saints) and the mid-tribulation crises. This temple will be built by un-Jesus folk and have sacrifices. In the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, Antichrist will enter the temple and demand a sacrifice to him. Millions of Jewish/Israeli will INDIVIDUALLY be saved in the 3½ days the two witnesses lie dead, moe when they come to life (they will be resurrected on international TV, nobody will miss it).

Brother Brother Bob: //I don't know how to debate someone who believes that the sacrifice of Jesus was not enough to put away sin forever and believes we will be going back to animal sacrifices. I think that is ridiculous, just to be honest about the matter. If you don't know that Jesus Christ is the "temple", I don't know what to say to you.//

The next Temple will be built in the first 3½-years of the Tribulation Judgement Period. It will be built by non-Messanic Jews. Assuming that it is the Ezekiel Temple, it will have sacrifices, at least the first 3½ years. The daily sacrifices of physical sheep & goats & red hefiers can start the day that the Jews are allowed to do so. The daily sacrifices can take place while the temple is Being built. Apparently all the Jews need to do is to assemble the pieces of the Temple building (the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies) is for them to have access to the Temple Mount. Right now the Dome of the Rock (DoR) is there.

The Ezekiel Temple is described without an outter court as was Solomon's Temple. (An 'utter court' is mentioned by Ezekiel but it could mean 'secular court'.

The Revelation Temple Mount is mentioned:

Rev 11:1-2 (KJV1611 Edition):
And there was giuen me a reede like vnto a rod, and the Angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the Temple of God, and the Altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the Court which is without the Temple leaue out, and measure it not: for it is giuen vnto the Gentiles, and the holy citie shall they tread vnder foote fourty and two moneths.

The reason NOT to measure something is that you aren't going to build anything there. The Temple of God build will NOT have an Outer Court (AKA: Court of the Gentiles) because the DoR is there. (Note that 42months divided by 12 months per year equals 3½-years.

 

Sister Linda64

Do you believe also in the animal sacrifices??

Hbr 10:12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

ED:
The daily sacrifices of physical sheep & goats & red hefiers can start the day that the Jews are allowed to do so. The daily sacrifices can take place while the temple is Being built.


Rev 21:22¶And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

BBob,

 

These verses don't answer my questions about satan's being bound during the time Christ was living on the earth. In the Millennium, satan is BOUND...he is thrown into the "bottomless" pit for 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

What thousand years is this in Revelation 20:3?
In Zechariah 14:4 we see Christ coming back TO THE EARTH:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Is the Mount of Olives and Jerusalem on the earth? I see that you fail to cite Old Testament scriptures for proof of your doctrine...the entire 14th chapter of Zechariah speaks of the battle of Armageddon. Also, it is my belief that Ezekiel 38 & 39 speak of a battle, which IMO, could also be Armageddon. Armageddon is not the 6th vial of God's wrath...it is an actual battle where all the nations of the earth come together in the valley of Megiddo to destroy Israel and Christ comes back to the earth to intervene:

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

We see the Armageddon in Joel 3:2:

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Revelation 20:4 speaks of a 1,000 year reign of Christ:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7).

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Armageddon is not the Final battle. The Final battle (Gog and Magog) takes place after satan is loosed for a short season and is defeated in that Final battle and is thrown into the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

From what I am reading, you don't believe in a literal 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Some believe that we are now in the Millennium and Christ is reigning on His throne and satan is bound. If satan is bound, how does one explain the evil in the world? Something to think about!

Scripture says that Christ WILL rule and reign on this earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years...satan will be bound in the bottomless pit...then he will be loosed for a short season to deceive the nations...God will defeat satan and he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (note: the false prophet and the Antichrist are ALREADY there....how and when did this happen?)...there will be a resurrection of the unsaved (which shoots down a "one general" resurrection)...the unsaved will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, death and hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, this is the second death. Then all those whose names were not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

We see the Armageddon in Joel 3:2:

Joel 3:2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

You don't believe that do you?

Revelation 20:4 speaks of a 1,000 year reign of Christ:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It was the souls that lived and reigned (past tense) and it has already happened.

Christ's kingdom will not end at the conclusion of the 1,000 years, but will continue forever (Isaiah 9:7).

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

He is on His throne now. I agree there is no end to His reign.

Jhn 1:49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.



Armageddon is not the Final battle. The Final battle (Gog and Magog) takes place after satan is loosed for a short season and is defeated in that Final battle and is thrown into the Lake of Fire:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The blind are leading the blind. The nations are being deceived now. We are in a battle as we speak. The dragon went out to make war with the seed of the Woman (church) who brought forth a man child. (Jesus).

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You think the church is not surrounded now? It won't be long until the Lord devours them also and lifts His children up to Heaven.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This I agree.

From what I am reading, you don't believe in a literal 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth. Some believe that we are now in the Millennium and Christ is reigning on His throne and satan is bound. If satan is bound, how does one explain the evil in the world? Something to think about!

No, I do not believe in a literal Millennial reign. I believe as most of the church has believed until John Darby and D L Moody came along, that it is spiritual.


Scripture says that Christ WILL rule and reign on this earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years...satan will be bound in the bottomless pit...then he will be loosed for a short season to deceive the nations...God will defeat satan and he will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (note: the false prophet and the Antichrist are ALREADY there....how and when did this happen?)...there will be a resurrection of the unsaved (which shoots down a "one general" resurrection)...the unsaved will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, death and hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, this is the second death. Then all those whose names were not written in the Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.[/quote]

You say this "shoots down" the one resurrection yet to come. Do you not believe Jesus, when He said the "hour" is coming nwhen ALL that are in the graves, shall come forth. That means both the just and the unjust.

New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia

The teaching of Christ is not millenarian. In Mark 1.15, indeed, He announces that the Kingdom of God is at hand; but He knows nothing of any provisory Kingdom to be founded by Him, or of any difference between His own and His Father’s

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/encyc07/Page_375.html



Show me where Christ will set foot on the earth in the Millenniam?

Please answer if you believe there will be animal sacrifices made in the end times??

BBob,

 

Brother Bob,

You must be an amillenialist/Preterist to believe that the Bible teaches there is no literal 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. I never even had heard of what you guys call "Darbyism" until I came on this BB. I choose simply to take the Bible literally and not "spiritualize" and "allegorize" Scripture. Believing in a literal 1,000 year reign of Christ is not a false teaching...it is a biblical teaching. I'm not going to go point by point with you on why I disagree with your views on the end times. I know for a fact that we are NOT in the Millennium at the present time and Christ is not reigning yet. There is no Scriptural proof that satan is bound...for there is no valid explanation for the evil in the world. If Christ is reigning now, what is the reason for the evil?

There is clear biblical evidence that the Millennial kingdom will be a literal earthly kingdom:

1) Christ's feet actually touching the Mount of Olives prior to the establishment of His kingdom:

Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

2) During the kingdom, the Messiah will execute justice and judgment on the earth:

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jeremiah 23:7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

Jeremiah 23:8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

3) The kingdom is described as being UNDER heaven (Daniel 7:13-14, 27);

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

4) The prophets foretold of dramatic earthly changes during the kingdom:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Isaiah 35:1 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.

Isaiah 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Isaiah 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

Isaiah 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Also Ezekiel 47:1-12 and Amos 9:11-15

5) The chronological order of events in Revelation indicates the existence of an earthly kingdom prior to the conclusion of world history (Revelation 20).

I've already posted Revelation 20.

 

"Everly"?? You got a singing brother, here? KJV says "...ever be with..."

Who is this Redeemer that is going to stand on the earth, Whom Job was speaking of?

Last I checked, Jesus Christ is one person of the triune God, aka, the LORD.

Whose feet are gonna' stand, then, on the Mount of Olives? Just because we "meet the Lord in the air" and "ever shall be with the Lord", does not mean we are "floating" around forever, somehow.

In fact, Zechariah here, in a fairly unique prophecy, actually gives a prophetic reference that specifically parallels a "church age" event, namely the Lord bringing his saints with him, here in Zech. 14:5c, cp. I Thess. 4:14.

Ed

 

Yes, He stood upon the earth and His own would not receive Him, and Job will see God in his flesh. He even stood on Mount of
Olives.

Jhn 8:1¶Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

It says He will be bringing the angels with Him and send to the four corners of the earth to gather in His children. He Himself will be in the air where we shall meet Him.

Jhn 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

"there" is not here.

You and Linda spend all your effort on mostly OT of which most has happened. You don't spend any time on what Jesus Himself said, and nowhere does Jesus preach a Millennium.

The Temple is Himself, the gathering is the church.




BBob,

 

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This means that Jesus will return to the earth on Mount of Olives--just like Zechariah 14:4 states.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This takes place at the end of the Tribulation when God gathers the remnant of Israel/the Jews who are still alive after the Tribulation from all over the world to Israel. They will recognize Jesus as Messiah (Zechariah 12:10) and will be saved and reign with Christ for 1,000 years in the MK.

Brother Bob,

There is much of the O.T. prophecy which has not been fulfilled yet...nobody can spend too much time in the O.T.

The "temple" in Revelation 21 is the LORD Himself---this is the Eternal Kingdom---which is NOT the same as the MK.

The church/the Body of Christ meets Christ in the air (1 Thess. 4:13-18) before the Tribulation period of 7 years....this is the Rapture or "catching away"! That is what I look for. That is imminent and we are to be ready because it can happen at any time.

 

It seems you do not want to answer anything I ask. I have asked you over and over if you also believe there will be animal sacrifices.

Do you believe we are living under the New Covenant?

BBob,

 

Brother Bob: // Do you believe also in the animal sacrifices??

Brother Bob: // Hbr 10:12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; //

No, Jesus paid it all. I will not be building a Temple during the Tribulation Period. I will be GONE GONE GONE.

Reading some literature, it appears that Ezekiel might have been describing Soloman's Temple?

 

There will be Tribulations of which no flesh would be saved except those days be shortened for the elect's sake, but this is not the "wrath" of God.


BBob,

 

Thank you Brother Ed; I will see you there.

 

Brother Bob,

Your eschatology is very different than anything I have ever heard. I think I'll just stick with what I have learned from Scriptures.

 

From what I have read, my eschatology is about the same as the church for the first 1600 years or more, they for the most part, believed the Mill to be Spiritual. There were some who believed in a literal kingdom but they were considered heretics, for the most part. There were of course Justin and others who believed in the literal kingdom, but they did not agree with each other. Some believed it would be a sensous fleshly desire fulfillment of all kinds. Many copied their belief from the Jewish Doctrine from the OT. It was not until the 17th century that the Literal Kingdom doctrine took hold in the Baptist family, from what I have read. Of course Ed will disagree, but I have read about his famous Justin and seems to me, he had his trouble trying to advocate a literal kingdom.

Regardless Linda, what is important to all and what we need to teach is that repentance is required at the hands of all men now, seek the Lord while He may be found and you know you have life and opportunity. The fact of the matter is that for the most part the Millennium was considered spiritual by most theologians, until recently.

BBob,

 

I beleive that was the Roman Catholic Church....Augustine taught that. And, yes, they called all who believed in a literal kingdom heretics.

 

Augustine is said to be the beginning of the Spiritual Kingdom, but he was not. As a matter of fact, he started out as a literal believer, but changed.
What I find is, that their belief of the Mill, is no where near what is being taught now.

Peace, raying:

BBob,

 

Yes, the early Baptists believed in a literal millenial kingdom.
Was there a Baptist family before the 17th century?
When and why did the Baptists in America turn from the old Baptist belief in a literal millennial kingdom?