Miracles

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Moriah, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. Moriah

    Moriah
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    John 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

    Did you hear that? Jesus said EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME. BELIEVE THE MIRACLES. THAT YOU MAY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN THE FATHER.

    So Calvinists, if God causes people to believe first by the Holy Spirit doing something to them to make them believe, then why does Jesus say believe the miracles? Why would Jesus even need to do miracles if the Holy Spirit causes them to believe? Why would Jesus be trying to convince people to believe if he knows that NO ONE can believe?

    Calvinism is nonsensical, and goes against the Word of God.
     
  2. annsni

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    Where is this scripture speaking of salvation?

    So you are saying Jesus was desperate, was "trying to convince people to believe" and yet He failed?
     
  3. DHK

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    Maybe he was saying that the Pharisees were Calvinists. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  4. Moriah

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    Calvinists say that NO ONE can believe in Jesus. Therefore, why would you say that maybe I think the Pharisees were Calvinists?
     
  5. DHK

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    They wouldn't believe in Jesus. They rejected him entirely. In fact they took up stones to stone him.
     
  6. Moriah

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    If you do not know that Jesus was speaking about saving them, then there is no point in trying to explain that to you.
    Jesus wanted to save people. Jesus wanted them to believe in him.

    Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
    John 7:28
    Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, “Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him,
    John 12:44
    Then Jesus cried out, “When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.
     
  7. Moriah

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    What is your fight with me, DHK? State your case clearly or move on.
     
  8. DHK

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    I am not going anywhere Moriah, and such statements from you are unwarranted.
    Secondly, I am not fighting you. I have stated my case. If you are unable to answer it, can't answer it, then don't. But throwing around offensive remarks will only land you in trouble.
     
  9. Moriah

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    I will ignore your comments then.
     
  10. billwald

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    >Jesus said EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME. BELIEVE THE MIRACLES.

    That is what a sophisticated person would say to a primitive audience. People in those days "believed in" magic/miracles, that the proper incantation could produce physical results.

    I "believe" that a miracle is a highly improbable event. For example, Jesus walking through a locked door. Quantum mechanics hints that this is physically possible but highly improbable. Why do many miracles occur once? Because probability only applies to future events. If something happened, it happened even if the odds of it happening a second time are very small.
     
  11. Moriah

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    What are you saying? Are you saying that Jesus did not do miracles? Are you saying Jesus could not do anything, anytime, and as much as he wanted?
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Paul clearly tells the Corinthians there are two contrasting conclusions when we share the gospel. Either people will believe it or reject it but in both cases God is glorified.

    2 Cor. 2:15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
    16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?


    Preaching the gospel accomplishes the will of God in those who reject it as well as in those who receive it so that God is glorified by both. So to conclude that he presented the gospel trying to save them is something you do not know. The gospel provides the basis for judgement as well as the basis for salvation (Rom. 2:16)

    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

    Miracles never brought anyone to salvation as they rejected the greatest of all miracles the resurrection of Jesus Christ. In the non-fictional story of Lazerus Abraham said if they will not believe the scriptures ("Moses and the prophets) they will not believe if one who has been raised from the dead.

    Miracles simply confirm His Word that is was the Word of God (Acts 2:22):

    22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    When the Pharisees and scribes explicitly asked Christ to perform a sign here is what he told them:

    Mt 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
    Mt 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:


    Jesus plainly states that "NO MAN" not just Jews but "NO MAN cometh unto me EXCEPT the Father draw him" and this is interpreted by Christ in John 6:64-65 to mean that faith must be "given unto him."

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.



    Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE ONE that the Father draws is saved as that is the clear explicit demand of the last phrase in John 6:44 and the clear and explicit demand in John 6:45:

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    Jesus just previously stated that every single person that cometh unto him he shall not lose any of them "but should raise it up again at the last day." - v. 39

    The fact, that EVERY SINGLE ONE that the Father draws, gives faith unto so that the can come to the Son will not be lost but will be raised up completely destroyes your whole soteriology from A to Z! Your soteriology cannot permit EVERY SINGLE ONE the Father draws to be ultimately and finally saved. That very fact sinks your soteriological ship and sends it spirling down to the depth of hell where it belongs.

    Your soteriology demands that only SOME may be saved that are drawn while others drawn will be lost. Hence, your soteriology is wrong! Unbiblical! Heretical!

    If you respond that this passage of scripture (Jn 6) was intended only for a special group of Jews - that is a lie as Jesus says "NO MAN can come to me except the Father draws him." Since everything Jesus said in the four gospels was directed to Jews then to be consistent you would have to reject everything Jesus said in the gospels as applicable to anyone but the jews.

    However, Paul said the same thing when writing to Gentiles concering the inability of the fallen nature of man (Rom. 3:9-20; 8:7-8). Hence, you have to make another SPECIAL application to Gentiles only don't you! However, Paul includes both "JEWS" as well as "GENTILES" in this description (Rom. 3:9) and so your soteriological ship is blown apart and sent spirling down to the depths of hell again!
     
  13. billwald

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    Sounds like a form of universalism to me. Everyone is saved except those whom the Bible names as reprobate.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Bill, there is no "form" of universalism unless none are reprobate.
     
  15. Moriah

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    You do not know and understand God. You choose Calvin’s word over the TRUTH.
    God wants ALL to be saved! God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
    Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
    Ezekiel 18:32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
    Again, you reject the TRUTH.
    YOU DENY THE WORD OF GOD BECAUSE IT EXPOSES YOUR FALSE BELIEFS. Jesus plainly says EVEN THOUGH YOU DO NOT BELIEVE ME. BELIEVE THE MIRACLES. THAT YOU MAY KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN THE FATHER.
    When Jesus was on earth, he came only for the Lost Sheep of Israel. After Jesus was crucified, then all men can come to him. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD.

    Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

    John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
     
  16. annsni

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    Do you think if they believed in the miracles they would be saved?
     
  17. Moriah

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    Why else do you think that Jesus told them to believe in the miracles? Why do you not accept what Jesus says?
     
  18. annsni

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    So if they believe in the miracles, they would be saved. Interesting. I didn't know there was salvation in miracles. I always thought that it was in Jesus Christ.
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Not one text says that God "wants" all people to be saved. These texts simply deny that God has pleasure in judgment and that all are responsible for their own sins and responsible to heed God's warnings and are responsible for heeding the revealed will of God. God's revealed will is that they should not sin and sinners should repent and come to Christ. However, God is glorified in their rejection as in their salvation and that is Paul's words in 2 Cor. 2:15-17.

    This text only exhorts them to believe the miracles that they might "KNOW" that the Father is in Him. It does not say anything about believe the miracles in order to be saved.

    That is only PART of God's word on this subject. He has other sheep not of this fold that he will bring in and they have been given to him as well (Jn. 17:2, 21). Hence, "ALL" includes the "lost sheep of Israel" but is not fulfilled by simply "the lost sheep of Israel" as you wrongly conclude and wrongly interpret PART of the scriptures on this subject.

    That is during his EARTHLY ministry but in John 17 he speaks of those given him by the Father out of "ALL FLESH" that shall believe AFTER He has returned to heaven and in John 10 that there are OTHER SHEEP not of this fold that he will bring into the fold. You take PART and reject the REST - so you have a HALF-truth.

    [/QUOTE]

    You forget that He said that every single one that is drawn to him is also raised up to the resurrection of eternal life (Jn. 6:39-40;44). You forget that "EVER MAN" that is drawn by the Father which is interpreted to mean to taught and learn of him (Jn. 6:45) will also come to him and none that come to him will be lost (Jn. 6:39,45). Hence, John 12 must be interpreted with its precedent and former teaching in John 6 and refers to "ALL" those defined in John 17:2.
     
  20. Moriah

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    If they believed the miracles, then they would believe that the one who did the miracles is from God!
     

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