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Misconceptions on both sides of the debate...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Aug 6, 2004.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I just love it when Pinoybaptist makes up something for me to believe.

    I find it very helpful when I am looking for something to believe and run into a believing-block.

    Thanks again.

    I was just about to say that.. :rolleyes:

    Can "two play"??

    Yes?

    OK -

    "Here is what Pinoy really believes. He believes that the word of God in Lev 16 and 1John 2:2 means absolutely nothing. He thinks we can just make stuff up instead of actually believing the text of scripture when it comes to the atonement".

    How did I do Pinoy?

    Is that how you're playing the game?


    You seem to be genuinely losing it now Pinoy. Where do you get this stuff?

    I assume that "accuracy" and "truth in presentation" are not actually "values" thatcount for much in this game you are playing.

    Is this a game played by one - or can anyone join?

    So Ray gets to play too?

    Well - I am sure he gets the idea, you are making it pretty clear "make stuff up and tell the opposing side that this is what they believe".

    I get it. And maybe you are doing this bit of fantasy as a way to make fun of that Calvinist future scenario.

    However - I was being serious.

    Hmm - so now I am "calvinist"???

    Or is it that I "no longer believe in free will"??

    Your game seems to have a lot of twists and turns.

    err... umm.. "Wrong"!

    Calvinists "NEED" Arminians to fall into the trap of closing their eyes to the teachings of God's Word on the subject of atonement. That way Calvinists can keeping hitting Arminians over the head with the problem such a failed approach to scripture would create.

    Interesting way you have of trying to convince one to leap off that cliff.

    Indeed. And by IGNORING the words of John about "Atoning SACRIFICE" as well as the teaching of God in the Lev 16 chapter on Atonment - they hope to make their case stick.

    But as you point out here - they ALSO hope to dupe Arminians into doing the SAME thing - only not JUST with the elect - but also with everyone. THEN Calvinists can INSIST that Arminians would have to be UNIVERSALISTS in order to keep claiming that WHOLE WORLD is really WHOLE WORLD in 1John 2:2.

    (Oops! I wasn't supposed to see that tactic in Pinoy's post! Sorry)

    Yep! That sure would leave Arminians stuck wouldn't it?!!

    Since I don't fall for it - nor do most Arminians - I am sure that Pinoy needs to find a different group of Arminians to debate.

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Quote: 'Arminians and Pelagians simply place the blame on man's wrong free will choice rather than man's depravity.'

    When the sinner stands before the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11, he or she is not going to be able to say in effect, "Lord You made me so totally depraved that I just could not believe Your truth in the Gospel."

    See how far that will get you.

    But, since the atonement is sufficient for all sinners, [I John 2:2] and the will is free [Revelation 22:17] to believe in Jesus, this also will not be an excuse to escape Hell, if a person rejects Christ.

    Acts 16:31 says, 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved . . . ' Believing in Christ is a congitive act of the whole human being, meaning the sinner.

    Arminian theologians do not believe that we can 'work' our way to Heaven. Almighty God receives all the glory and praise in bring every one of the children of God to Heaven and eternal life. Salvation is a gift and is all of God.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The point is that if 1John 2:2 is speaking of full atonement - then the Calvinists will win the argument.

    If 1John 2:2 is speaking of "Atoning Sacrifice" as the NIV states it -- then the Armininan position prevails.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    BobRyan said:
    Oh, yeah ? Do Ray Berrian or Skandelon or EricB or Diane Tevagia and the rest of the Arminians here believe that there is an in-between period after the atonement ?

    Hey, guys, do any of you agree with what Bob Ryan is insinuating here ? That you believe the atonement is not yet complete and is not for the whole world ? That even if the Bible says 'he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our sins only, but for the sins of the whole world', that really doesn't mean that the atoning and the propitiating is over, and that right now, Christ is doing a 'he loves me, he loves me not, he loves me, he loves me not' up there in the blue yonder trying to figure out who, finally, is worthy of his atonement based on their works and faithfulness ?
     
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Stop hiding behind the backs of the Arminians, Bob Ryan. Your tactic is to pull them in front of you to protect your facade.

    Defend your position.

    I have brought your position outright in question. Stand up like a man and defend it, don't cower behind the others.

    You remind me of a small child who points and taunts others while hiding behind big brother.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    A simple question for Calvinists - in God's Lev 16 definition of Atonement - He shows us that once the Atonement process is complete - the work of the High Priest has ended.

    Do you believe what He is saying there?

    Do you believe that Christ's work as High Priest ended at the Cross?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Please point out where you actually said something Pinoy rather than simply ranting.

    I am happy to allow you to rant as it pleases you -- OR to actually make a point, ask a question and I will respond.

    You seem to have chosen the former so I was just happy that you found a way to entertain yourself.

    Did you actually have a point? If so, I missed it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BobRyan said:
    Indeed - they probably ALSO do not think that Christ ended His High Priestly ministry at the cross.

    They probably ALSO can READ Lev 16 and SEE that the High Priestly ministry DOES end at the end of the entire Atonement process as GOD defined it.

    They probably ALSO agree with the NIV in 1 John 2:2 that the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD.

    So though they may not be saying "Atoning Sacrifice" in every post - in effect they are teaching it.

    Get it??

    (BTW - you are pretty good at "making stuff up" - I have to hand it to you).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Tell you what, Bob Ryan, let the Arminians speak for themselves.They are the Arminians, not you. You are Seventh Day Adventist, a believer in investigative judgment, a non-believer in the finished atonement, a non-believer in the finished redemptive work of Christ for all His people, a non-believer of the fact that Christ said 'it is finished' which means the redeeming and atoning work is done.

    The Arminians believe that salvation is by grace thru faith, and is final, based on the finished and perfect work of Christ and on His mercy, and not temporary based on human merit.

    Are you denying your true and actual and final belief is that salvation, finally, is based on human merit ?

    Here's a quote from one of your websites:

    Am I making this up ?
     
  10. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    So, now, if all who are asleep in Christ are being investigated to find out who are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection, and since the Bible says 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God', then I ask the question asked by someone to Jesus: who tnen can be saved ?

    So, Bob Ryan no doubt will say, 'that's why Jesus is the Savior, we need to place our faith in Him'. Alright, if Jesus is the savior, and salvation is by grace thru faith, and these are asleep in Christ, why are they being investigated ?

    So, do we have saved individuals, or don't we have saved individuals.

    Now, we go to the living. Bob Ryan has repeatedly said in this forum: salvation is by grace thru faith in Christ !

    Yeah. Sure. But, your fundamental doctrines state that the investigative judgment also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, yadayadayada...

    Well, let me ask you, Bob Ryan. How much better are you than Paul who was brought up to the third heaven and heard unspeakable things, who saw Christ on the road to Damascus, who suffered many things for the name of Christ, and yet, in the end cried out, 'oh, wretched man that I am, who shall save me from this body of death ?', and who also said, 'I find that in me dwelleth no good thing' ?

    Or how much better are you than Job, a perfect and upright man, who excelled all men on earth in his day in defending himself against the illiberal charges of his 3 friends, he lost sight of his wretchedness before God. But, when the Almighty summoned his attention to behold the marvelous works of the Creator, and drew his mind near the immaculate throne of divine glory, he cried out: "behold! I am vile--I abhor myself, repenting in dust and ashes."

    What judgment and righteousness is there in a god like yours who will send his son to die on a wretched cross to pay for the sins of men and then require of these same men what they are unable to do which is why he sent his son in the first place ?

    Who is faithful and abiding in him ? Who can claim such nonsense ? Not Arminians. Not Calvinists. And certainly not Seventh Day Adventists.

    Do you post on Saturdays, Bob Ryan ? Are you not supposed to be resting on the Sabbath ? Do you drive to your church on Saturdays ? Do you cook ? Do you brush your teeth and comb your hair on Saturdays ? Have you been brotherly and charitable in your posts to Calvinists here and in referring to the God they worhsip and revere, Bob Ryan ?

    Who then will be saved in accordance with the principles of your investigative judgment if abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments and the faith of Jesus is the criteria for being ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Bob,

    Your attempt to distinguish between atoning sacrifice and atonement is a semantic dodge. It just doesn't work. The Bible makes no such distinction and version shopping won't work. An atoning sacrifice is an atonement.
     
  12. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist New Member

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    The question remains: Did He, or Didn't He?
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    An interesting assertion. Can you prove any of it?

    Lev 16 seems to be pretty clear on what God is saying about Atonement.

    Don't you think?

    It's a chapter that I typically don't ignore when looking for the definition God gives for atonement.

    How about you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Yes, I think Lev 16 is clear. I think the distinction between the atonement and the atoning sacrifice is a distinction without a difference. It simply won't hold up. An atoning sacrifice is an atonement.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Can't tell who you are quoting - but assuming this is for me...

    Daniel 7 makes it clear "The court sits and the books are opened" and the persecution of the saints continues "until judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

    Paul is pretty clear "We MUST ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ to GIVE an account for the DEEDS done in the body whether they be good or evil".

    Check out Romans 6 - there is only ONE reward for "evil deeds".

    Notice what Paul says in Romans 2 when it comes to Gospel - JUSTIFICATION?

    The answer to your question is that although we come to Christ "by grace through faith" and receive Justification as a gift - NOT of works lest any man should boast -- YET Christ is STILL correct when HE says "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven - but rather he who DOES the will of My Father" Matt 7.

    So then - you have to accept ALL of the Bible teaching on this subject - not just one favored part of it. Otherwise your doctrine will not stand up "sola scriptura".

    See?

    You're really going to love this one.

    Because we live an a FREE WILL universe Nick!

    (Please note the book of Job chapters 1 and 2).

    Calvinism has no explanation at all as to why sin lasted one minute passed the fall of Adam - (except that God is arbitrary and cruel and innexplicably indifferent to the woe that caused).

    But the Arminian position is that God CREATED a free will universe. 1/3 of the Angels fell - 2/3's did not. The universe is in obedience to God - NOT out of fear or ROBOT-Love but out of intelligent motivation and decision. Compelling argument, testing the assertions.. you know - EXACTLY what we see in Job 1 and 2.

    The Daniel 7 and 2Cor 5 future (and Rom 2:5-16) future judgment is NOT so "God can discover who is a saint" - rather it is to REVEAL the truth of Christ's claim - about the Gospel "By their FRUIT you SHALL know them". God's ways are SEEN to be JUST (Rev 19:1-2) in the end.

    We "do" have them.

    Hmm. So you were listening!

    Let me see if I have your yadayadayada quote right ---

    Oops! Forgot to add "yadayadayada".

    (Just so we are on the same page)

    Are you saying that Christ is in error IF I am not "better than Paul"?

    That is an odd defense.

    #1. That's Romans 7. Paul gives the answer in Romans 8 - by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

    #2. Are you really interested in what Paul said on this subject?

    Of course this is just Paul - and not all of what he says on this subject.

    Did you want more from him?

    More from the Gospels and the words of Christ?

    Or were you hoping to review some from the OT as well?

    Just let me know what scripture is of interest to you.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Straw man. You are not quoting me - just making things up. (OR are you quoting Pinoy)??

    Notice how your argument keeps coming back to "Christ SAID that by their fruits you shall know them - but that is not actually true".

    Or something like "Paul SAID we would stand before the judgment seat of Christ - but when we do all the deeds will be evil and we will be rewarded for those evil deeds at that time".

    Hey now wait a minute!

    Who is going to be "pinoy" for the Arminians if I don't make a few "direct" points? ;) :D

    Ok - seriously. [​IMG]

    My intent is not to be "mean" to Calvinists but to be "direct" in pointing out the errors that Calvinism promotes.

    However any time you do that - you also get into the problem of dealing with the various "defensive strategies" people employ to avoid obvious points. I tend to point those out as well and explain why I think they are not as effective as simply responding to the point and arguing objectively against it.

    However - that is not meant to be offensive or hurt anyone.

    Are you saying that to differ with a Calvinist is to hurth their feelings?

    If I point out the negative view that Calvinism portrays of God - does that violate the teaching of Christ in Titus 1? I am hoping that it does not.


    You keep quoting from what appears to be John 15 and Rev 12 and saying "if scripture is right - who can be saved" - why are you doing that?

    IN Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So then you end the chapter at vs 15?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Bob, lighten up and join us at the other forums.
    There are other interesting things to discuss besides Calvin and Arminius.

    [​IMG]
     
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