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Misconceptions

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Drew, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. rc

    rc New Member

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    Post edited for content. Please keep your posts on the topic rather than making comments about other posters.

    Thanks,
    Larry

    [ January 26, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  2. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Hard sheller;
    You said you believed in these things;
    This just doesn't appear to be true with the Calvinist I've been talking to. The doctrine of Total depravity states that the natural man is focused on evil continually and thus is unable to respond to the gospel.
    You said;
    "Even unsaved men can obey the laws of God."
    It's nice that you can admit what is true and ofcourse you agree the law is a good thing to obey. However the words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good with in.
    You said;
    "Where are you getting all your misconceptions?
    "
    If all I have is misconceptipons of Calvinism then it could have only come from what I have read right here at BB.com from the Calvinist them selves. Most Calvinist misrepresent there own doctrines because they only know what there teachers have taught them and not what Calvin himself wrote in the institutes of Christianity.

    The answers given to the Arminians were not asked by Calvin Him self but it seems that after His death Calvinism changed somewhat with each new successor. It must have evolved with minister like Spurgeon.
    I think you have the wrong Idea here. I am open to explanation of your doctrines. I have read some here from you in the Archives. I haven't seen any truth placed on this board about the tulip. It seems Calvinist say one thing and God's Word says another.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  3. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    This just doesn't appear to be true with the Calvinist I've been talking to. The doctrine of Total depravity states that the natural man is focused on evil continually and thus is unable to respond to the gospel.
    You said;
    "Even unsaved men can obey the laws of God."
    It's nice that you can admit what is true and ofcourse you agree the law is a good thing to obey. However the words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good with in.
    You said;
    "Where are you getting all your misconceptions?
    "
    If all I have is misconceptipons of Calvinism then it could have only come from what I have read right here at BB.com from the Calvinist them selves. Most Calvinist misrepresent there own doctrines because they only know what there teachers have taught them and not what Calvin himself wrote in the institutes of Christianity.

    The answers given to the Arminians were not asked by Calvin Him self but it seems that after His death Calvinism changed somewhat with each new successor. It must have evolved with minister like Spurgeon.

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]You continue to try to put words in people's mouths without listening to what they say.
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Hardsheller;
    This thread isn't about me Hardsheller it's about misconceptions. Point them out if you have them and we'll discuss them. You seem to want to discuss me. I'm real glad that you like me and all but we are suppose to stay on the topic at hand. The topic get it!
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Yes it is about you because you will not listen to the opposing view at face value but you cloud it with your misconception.

    For example - You said - "The doctrine of Total depravity states that the natural man is focused on evil continually and thus is unable to respond to the gospel."

    Then you said - "..the words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good with in."

    Neither one of those statements is a true representation of Calvinistic Doctrine.
     
  6. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    The doctrine of Total Depravity does not state that the natural man is focused on evil continually and thus is unable to respond to the gospel.

    Where did you get this?

    The doctrine of total depravity means that left up to his natural inclinations he will never overcome his propensity toward evil.

    The words Total Depravity together simply means that the natural man is completely evil with no good within.

    Where did you get this?

    Calvinists when they use the words Total Depravity do not mean that all men are as depraved as they can possibly be. There are always varying degrees of depravity. For example Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler were more depraved than you and I were before we were saved.
     
  7. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Hardsheller;
    Having this verse quoted to me from Calvinist in an attempt to prove the false doctrine of total
    Depravity;
    Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savor; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    What is the difference? You just said the same thing every other Calvinist says. When you say he will never overcome his propensity toward evil. Your still saying the same thing. It looks as if your not being honest here. If a man cannot over come his nature to sin then he is thinking about evil continually.
    Sadam and Hitler had the same opportunity as everyone else. Life is what you make it. It's called reaping what we sow. I could have just as easily been someone like them but I choose not to go down that path. We make choices everyday, saved or not. We have to accept the consequinces of those choices. We start paying for our sins the minute we sin. Being saved from those sins is what Salvation is all about. Salvation is a concious choice of trust. Trust isn't a work but the results of Faith. Faith isn't a work of man but is the results of the works of God it is a work of God it self. How do we get God's work of faith? We listen to the Word and learn of Him first. Can we listen? Yes we can without being regenerated first. Our spiritual hearing was never taken from us. our spiritual understanding was never taken from us. The Bible say's we can hear.
    Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
    Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
    Can you show me just where it says man cannot hear or respond,or even understand or act upon a spiritual decision to the gospel?

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  8. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Mike,

    A man cannot overcome his inclination to evil or to sin. That is why we all need a savior.
     
  9. rc

    rc New Member

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    Can you show me just where it says man cannot hear or respond,or even understand or act upon a spiritual decision to the gospel?

    Come on ILL... read Romans 3

    Romans 3:10-11 10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 NO ONE UNDERSTANDS; no one seeks for God.

    There' a point blank proof text.. You wanted a verse that says the natural man can't UNDERSTAND and there you go. Quit worshipping man !

    1 Corinthians 2:14 14 The natural person DOES NOT ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND them because they are spiritually discerned.

    You might as well preach the gospel in English to a bunch of Chinamen... they can hear you, but they can't understand you. SO THEY ALSO CAN NOT RESPOND.. Spiritualy, you can preach it but unless God opens up the eyes of the natural man he will NEVER repsond.

    See? That's what it is like to DIRECTLY use scripture in a response. I didn't lead you on a rabbit trail about something completely differant and the verses were BY THE WORD EXACTLY what you were looking for. Can you please do the same? Stop trying to make God a lier !
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Hardsheller;
    No Argument here. I agree, although having a Savior is no guarantee that we will from the point of receiving Him, be with out sin. We will only be completely free from sin in the next life. No man in this life is without sin.

    The only difference between saved and unsaved is Christ Jesus it is His righteousness that we have. Our's is like filthy raggs. Even still this doesn't mean that man has no righteousness or no value because even raggs can be washed.

    I couldn't help noticing that you had no reply to my understanding of your views of Total Depravity.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all'
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller Active Member
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    Rest Easy Mike,

    I just don't have time to address it today. I'll get to it.
     
  12. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Harsheller;
    I always rest easy just like a baby. The reason is because I have the peace of Christ.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  13. rc

    rc New Member

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    There you go again ILL ... change the subject...
    Find a verse that EXPLICITLY, word for word says NATURAL MAN HAS THE ABIBILITY to seek God !!!
     
  14. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    You show us one IN ITS CONTEXT that says that All mankind CANNOT seek God!
     
  15. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    You say you understand Calvinism, Mike, yet...


    You never state what you believe total depravity means. By the way, Rome believes the same as you on this too. You seem to believe we believe the will is destroyed. We do not, we believe man is naturally able, but morally incapable. You are the one that says that by saying man can choose only what it is within his moral character to do is unbiblical. Can God sin? Isn't He limited by His moral character as well? By believing in libertine free will, you believe man can do something that not even God Himself can do! Larry was correct in saying that, according to your own definition of free will, God does not have free will. You may disagree with the Reformed position on free will, but at least we're consistent in giving God free agency and man free agency. You have man possessing a quality that God does not, which violates the whole concept of being created in God's image. If you were consistent, then God can sin and might turn evil on us one day.


    By the way, Rome believes what you believe about this too.

    This is a straw man, because Calvinism teaches man can and does resist God's grace. Irresistible grace means that God's grace in saving an individual is effective and overcomes the resistance that man offers. It does not mean grace is not resisted at all. (You also fail to account for John 6:44-45, which flatly contradicts you.)


    Yet the alternative is works righteousness, exactly Rome's soteriology. This is looking more and more like popery...


    On the contrary, general atonement has NO power, because nobody's salvation is secured. Your atonement, not ours is powerless. We limit the SCOPE of the atonement for that reason. You limit the power. This fact is undeniable. Obviously you do not understand the doctrine of limited atonement (and refuse to make any effort in the process). Since general atonement secures the salvation of not even one person, it is powerless. While our view of the atonement is limited in scope, at least Jesus actually paid for our sins Himself, just like the Bible says He did.

    Do you want to go there? YOU are the one that says that "helkuo/helkush" is not in any manuscript of John 6! YOU are the one that changes the meaning to "persuade" rather than "to drag/draw" in order to fit your soteriological system! You, Mike, are the one changing words and even making claims about NT manuscripts that no lexicon and no critical apparatus containing the textual variants for John 6 support.

    Oh, and Rome believes in general atonement.

    This is an argument against the antinomian doctrine of eternal security, not the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints. One more time, eternal security means that all the saints are preserved but they do not all persevere. Perseverance of the saints means God preserves the saints and they all persevere as a result and they do so willingly. You are apparently confusing the two doctrines.

    By the way, Rome accepts your position on conditional security too.

    The fact that you have, in the past, tried to allege that Calvinism is Romanist, it is abundantly clear that you have taken the side of the papists in your soteriology. This shows exactly how profoundly confused you must be.

    John 6:37...Jesus begins by telling them WHY THEY DO NOT BELIEVE 6:38...Jesus establishes the connection between coming and being raised on the last day...John 6:40....Jesus establishes the will of the Father, after stating explicitly nobody that comes will be cast out from Him...John 6:43...Jesus again notes their grumbling in 6:44 tells them exactly why they are grumbling and DO NOT COME TO HIM....and concludes by telling them by affirming irresistible grace in v. 45! Romans 8:6 -9 says explicitly that man does not have the ability to please God or submit to Him in its unregenerate state! The text is clearly contrasting the believer and the nonbeliever. 1 Cor 2:14...Do you really believe that the natural man, who is, by definition, unsaved and unregenerate, who thinks spiritual things (like the gospel) are foolish, and does not have the ability to understand them can seek God?! Why would he do so if that is what he thinks in his heart. Romans 3, Psalm 14, and Ps. 53 all, in context, say nobody seeks God.

    How is it that you can say they can do something that Scripture says plainly they do not do and, when the questions being answered are "why" questions (Romans 8:7 even uses the word "because" to answer that very question) about their not seeking God, the answer is clearly that they do not have the moral ability to do so, which, for the record, is the exact position of Reformed soteriology?
     
  16. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    That's fine Gene, but not one of those scriptures say that man CAN NOT Seek God!

    CAN NOT is different than DO NOT, WILL NOT! We have our excuses why we do not and will not, but there is nothing in scripture that says we CAN NOT Seek God. There is no physical reason, nor spiritual reason why man can not seek God!

    As for Romans 8:7 which you use out of context:
    The reason man DOES NOT SEEK GOD is this, Man's spirit is in the condition of rebellion, a form of disobedience, against God. Therefore man's spirit does not seek after God. But that does not say that man's spirit is not capable of seeking God. You are simply wrong when you say that man is not capable of doing so.
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Now let us look at the context, because, CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!
    NOW, make this passage say what you want it to say!
     
  18. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    Actually John 6 explains that very well, because Jesus in v. 37 is explaining to a group of unbelievers WHY they don't believe, and He concludes by saying they can not come to Him because they are not drawn and they are not drawn because they are not given. Man does not and will not seek God, because He does not have the ability to submit to God or understand spiritual things beyond an intellectual level.

    Regarding Rom. 8


    Wes, posting Scripture and not interacting with it yourself to show how I have misinterpreted it shows only that you can post Scripture and say somebody has misinterpreted it. Please interact with long texts of Scripture that you post.

    First of all, the law to which Paul refers is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. It is this law that has freed us from the law of sin and death as seen in 8:2. This is a very common error with many Christians who want to eradicate the law (while not knowing which law) from the believer's life. Paul is not referring to law-keeping but to the law of life which only believers have. The law of God (any law) doesn't save us and even the unbeliever can grasp the essence of God's law which is written on the conscience of all men. However, unbelievers pervert this law because of the blindness Satan has been allowed by God to place over their ability to see, know and understand the light (truth) of the glorious gospel (2 Cor. 4:4). Jeremiah 31:31 clearly tells us that our covenant membership/life in Christ is having the law of God written on our hearts. Obviously, this implies that prior to our conversion there is no law of God (law of the Spirit of life) written on our hearts. Why? Because the only (spiritual) heart we have prior to conversion is compared to stone which is without life and that which is without life has no ability to believe anything apart from its own natural realm of understanding. Paul reminds us that the natural man (carnal mind) is at enmity with God. This means the natural man has a natural malice or hatred for anything pertaining to God. The natural man is still outside the law of the Spirit of life in Christ. He is still dead in sin and subject to the law of sin and death. He is not subject to the law of life, obviously, since he has NO life in Christ. It is only in this sense the Arminian is 'somewhat' correct, even though he clearly doesn't understand what law God is talking about.

    Secondly, Romans 8 doesn't directly speak of the unbeliever's ability to believe. Nowhere does Paul address the issue of believing in this chapter. However, Romans 10 clearly speaks of the issue of believing but never apart from an action of the heart. So, if the unbeliever can believe with a stone heart, why then is there any need to change it to a heart of flesh? Of course, the word 'heart' is used metaphorically and it describes the action of that which has life.

    The following is God's own description of the unbeliever:

    outside the law of the Spirit of life
    under the law of sin and death
    blinded by Satan so that he cannot see (know/understand) the light (truth) of the glorious gospel
    has an innate hatred/malice (enmity) toward God
    has a heart of stone (lifeless)
    their heart is wicked
    unable to understand spiritual things
    unable to please God

    The mind of the lost person is hostile toward God! The lost need more than a little help to believe or a little persuasion. The core of his being, his mind is set against God.

    The lost person does not subject itself to the law of God. Make whatever arguments you want about whether the Gospel is in view with the term law; this means that the lost man is in a permanent state of rebellion against the authority of God.

    The lost person is not even able to subject himself to the law of God. Again, even if the gospel is not in view here, the rebellion in lost man against the authority of God is so deeply entrenched that he can do nothing to change it. The lost man is so affected by sin that he can do nothing to set himself right with God, and in fact doesn't even want to.

    Is God pleased when men believe the gospel? (Luke 15:7). I would hope you would say "Yes." However verse 8 says unbelievers are unable to please God; therefore they are unable to believe the gospel, because believing the gospel pleases God." QED. Paul clearly and unequivocally says fallen man is unable to please God apart from regeneration.
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    The scriptures that I post are SELF EXPLANATORY, read them!

    The one verse within what I post, that you hang your doctrine upon, simply does not mean the same thing in Context. And that is why I post the Context!
     
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