Misrepresenting Calvinism

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by russell55, Oct 25, 2003.

  1. russell55

    russell55
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    Okay...so every time I check up on you guys to see if there's anything interesting going on in here, there is now a banner ad at the top. On the right side it usually says something like "an explanation of Calvinism" or "an explanation of predestination/election" and a link to this page:

    What is selective salvation?

    ......where I find little gems like this one:
    Perusing the site, I find lots of other similar (or worse) untruths about/misrepresentations of/misunderstandings of Calvinism/election/predestination.

    My questions is:

    Is someone who sets up a site like this

    </font>
    • simply ignorant (although I find it really difficult to understand how someone can write 66 pages on something and really be that ignorant or it), or</font>
    • purposefully misrepresenting things because its much easier to argue against a charicature of Calvinism than actual Calvinism?</font>
    Do you know of any websites that argue against Calvinism as it actually is rather than a charicature of it?
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Post edited for being off topic. Please answer the question asked, or refrain from posting. If you have a topic of your own, feel free to start a new thread.

    [ October 25, 2003, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Question #1 What is selective salvation? It is salvation by Yes or NO answer.

    question #2 Is someone who sets up a site like this

    a. * simply ignorant (although I find it really difficult to understand how someone can write 66 pages on something and really be that ignorant or it), Well, it appears that the person who built the site simply has a persuasion different than yours. I'm sure you could write 66 pages about your persuasion too!

    or
    b. * purposefully misrepresenting things because its much easier to argue against a charicature of Calvinism than actual Calvinism? It appears that the parts you posted are not so much against Calvin as they are against Calvinism! If what was posted is a misrepresentation perhaps you could contact the person and invite him to this BBS where He can argue the merits of his/her website with you.

    Question #3 Do you know of any websites that argue against Calvinism as it actually is rather than a charicature of it? No, but I don't know of any that are for Calvinism that do any better. Web sites against Calvinism are not acceptable to Calvinists, and Websites that support Calvinism are not acceptable to those who oppose Calvinism. There you are!
     
  4. Eladar

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    How is this incorrect?
     
  5. Hardsheller

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    How is this incorrect? </font>[/QUOTE]The quote is incorrect because Calvinism never claims that God sends anyone to heaven or hell against their will.
     
  6. Eladar

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    Jesus does. See Matthew 7 where Jesus says that there are those who will think they are going to heaven, but they really aren't.
     
  7. russell55

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    Actually, it is not that he has a different persuasion than I do about these things that is bothering me. What is bothering me is that he is labeling something Calvinism that is not Calvinism at all. He is making statements that no Calvinist would agree with and saying "this is Calvinism/Reformed theology/etc."

    Of course I could write 66 pages about what I believe. In fact, I probably already have done that right here in this cotton-pickin' section of the forum. But once again, that's not the point. The point is that this guy wastes 66 pages arguing against a system of belief that NO ONE adheres to.

    They are not against Calvinism OR Calvin.

    I don't have to agree with the viewpoint of a website to find it acceptable, as long as it doesn't tell untruths about what it is exactly that the other guy believes. Misrepresenting what the other guy believes is dirty politics--acceptable perhaps in the political arena, but not within the body of Christ.

    But not to worry, this guy seems to be an equal opportunity misrepresenter. He does an excellent job of misrepresenting the majority of Arminian as well.... :(
     
  8. russell55

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    Every single person who is truly seeking God will be found by Him, and will be welcomed into heaven by Him.

    These people were not truly seeking God. Those who truly seek God desire to do His will, something these people did not desire to do.
     
  9. Curly Fries

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    Jesus does. See Matthew 7 where Jesus says that there are those who will think they are going to heaven, but they really aren't. </font>[/QUOTE]It could be argued that these people did not want to go to heaven. After all they were "practicing lawlessness" (Mat. 7:23b).
     
  10. Curly Fries

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    After browsing http://www.biblehelp.org/whatsel.htm
    I would say that the guy who wrote the text, Michael Bronson, is clueless. His knowledge of Calvinism is at best second hand. He shows little understanding of what he is criticising.

    For example, this sentence is utter nonsense: "Even the person selected to go to Heaven has no say in the matter, he is forced to "love" God. This belief system is called Calvinism, Reformed Theology, Election, Predestination, or Selective Salvation."
     
  11. Eladar

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    Yes, you can play word games with all scripture. The fact remains that these people wanted to go to heaven, but are not allowed to enter.

    It reminds me of a saying that some coaches like to use:

    The will to win is meaning without the willingness to work.

    Teams that are not willing to put in the work necessary to win still hurt when they lose. They want to win during the time of the contest, but lose because of other reasons.

    It is not an accurate description to say that they lost because they didn't want to win, just as your argument about those people not wanting to go to heaven is inaccurate.
     
  12. russell55

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    They may have wanted what good things they thought heaven would get them, but if they had really desired to be with God, they would have loved Him and desired to do His will, but they did not.

    But this is off-topic and taking the thread in a direction I did not intend.
     
  13. Eladar

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    Not really. I'm just proving the point that what you believe is a misrepresentation is actually accurate. Since you don't want to see it that way, I can see why you'd like to pretend the issue I bring up doesn't really exist.
     
  14. russell55

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    I think I agree. I don't think it's intentional--he's just ignorant. Here's what he wrote about our Arminian friends:

    Well, Charles Finney and Clark Pinnock may adhere to a governmental theory of the atonement, but most of my Arminian friends would not. One might be able to argue that their theory of the atonement is not very coherent, but whats laid out here is NOT what they believe.
     
  15. russell55

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    It is not an accurate representation of what Calvinists believe. Calvinists do not believe that there are people truly seeking deliverance whom God does not deliver.
     
  16. Eladar

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    That is not what he said, neither is that what I'm saying.

    You are playing word games in order to come to your conclusion on the matter. I've already explained the word game you are playing and how it is faulty.
     
  17. Curly Fries

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    Yes, you can play word games with all scripture. The fact remains that these people wanted to go to heaven, but are not allowed to enter.
    [snip]
    </font>[/QUOTE]I do not play word games. How can someone who "practices lawlessness" really want to be in heaven? In heaven they would be in the presence of God who hates lawlessness.
    These people had their own vision of "heaven" which they wanted to attain. That is why they missed the real thing.

    As an example, I bet that Oprah wants to be in heaven. She does all the good things that she hopes will make her be welcome there. Unfortunately, one day she will learn the truth, but then it will be too late.
     
  18. russell55

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    Yes it is, and I quote from my very first post on this thread:

    He says quite clearly here that Calvinists believe that there may be people who seek deliverance from God who do not receive it. THAT is a misrepresentation of what Calvinists believe.

    If you want to continue discussing the question of exactly what Matt 7 means, do you suppose I could get you to start a new thread specifially for that? You might want to start it in another section, though, as it is not really a Cal/Arm issue....
     
  19. qwerty

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    Hardsheller posted:

    The quote is incorrect because Calvinism never claims that God sends anyone to heaven or hell against their will.

    It appears that Mr. Calvin might disagree with you. Or, Mr. Calvin probably didn't say what he is quoted as saying, or really didn't mean it.


    Calvin, Institutes, Book III, Chapter XXI, Section 5.
    Calvin himself described predestination as "the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whatever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death."
     
  20. Curly Fries

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    Note that those "preordained to eternal life" at one time or another in their lives are "quickened by the Holy Spirit" who gives them realization of their sin and the desire for the holiness (and thus being in Heaven with God). Those "preordained to eternal damnation" only persist in their natural state, with no desire to be in the presence of Holy God, thus no desire to be in Heaven.
    So both kinds of people do get what they desire.
     

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