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Missionary vs Evangelist (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alex Quackenbush, Nov 9, 2007.

  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    And you seem to be avoiding the OP on this one. I'll quote from it for you:

    "A thread in the fellowship forum was opened up but since it was in the fellowship forum someone suggested another being opened for debate in the debate forums. In fulfilling that wish I am opening the debate/discussion on the topic.

    "What is a Missonary? What is an Evangelist?

    "As well I have included the original question:"

    "Originally Posted by Hawaiiski
    Where did the term "missionary" originate? Why do we use it if it isn't in the Bible? Was an evangelist in the Bible the equivalent of a missionary?"

    My belief is that the Biblical evangelist was not a missionary. You seem to be saying evangelist and missionary are the same. Yet I contend you have not proven your point. Where is it in the Bible that the evangelist was a missionary?


    Now, in the texts you have given here, nothing is mentioned about church planting, and the term evangelist is not used. So I fail to see the relevance to our discussion.
    Once again I'll ask: where did Timothy do church planting? Do you have a clear understanding of what a church planting missionary does, and of how to plant a church? You don't seem to.

    I keep expecting someone to dispute my definition of a missionary as a church planter. No one has, so my definition stands. So now I am still waiting to be shown where the Biblical evangelist planted a church. Go ahead, I'll even allow you to use Timothy. Don't tell me what Timothy did in the church Paul planted. Tell me where Timothy planted a church. I'll be waiting.
     
  2. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    J o J

    The people you are referencing as the typicals, really have very little to do with Christ. That being said, I understand what you are saying, and there is some truth to it, however some people are in a position where they want to 'go', but the Lord clearly says stay where I put you. I realize there isn't quite so much 'glory' (for lack of a better word) in being a domestic missionary, but nonetheless, there are domestic missionaries.


    BGTF

    BTW, the answer to your question is yes.
     
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm afraid there is not much glory here on earth in being a missionary. When we are on furlough, occasionally someone calls missionaries their heroes (I always shudder), but often there is apathy. Remember that Paul said the apostles were the offscouring of the earth (a quite different picture than we have of them looking back in history). I will be content if someday I hear God's "Well done." In the meantime, we must all do God's will whether it keeps us in the homeland or takes us to faraway lands. And no doubt God will reward those who wanted to come out to the fields of the world but were not called.

    Having said that, in the army the risk of being on the front lines does not compare with the risk of pushing paper in the Pentagon. So frankly I am somewhat jealous of the title missionary. You folk in the States may be Christian soldiers, but do you have to struggle to learn a foreign language? Do you weep over cross-cultural frustration? Do you get stress diseases because you don't understand the customs around you? Do you face real depression from having no idea what to do to build bridges to the people around you who speak a different language and have completely different customs? Do you face complete rejection by heathen bureaucrats simply because you are a missionary when you apply for something? We have faced all of these things foreign to someone who never leaves America, and much more.

    I mean no offense, I'm just trying to point out some things about the word missionary. We find when in the States that no one understands these things unless they have actually at least visited the mission fields of the world. Yet that doesn't discourage me. I count it a great, undeserved privilege to be a missionary.
    Sorry, I'm not sure which question you mean. :confused:
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1Tim 4
    10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
    11Prescribe and teach these things.
    12Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe.
    13Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
    14Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
    15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
    16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.



    1. The activity described is not that of someone going to a new area and evangelizing -

    2. You seem to be arguing that you find no evangelism there AND that you find no church planting - church growth etc there.

    Is it your claim that they did nothing if they were not evangelists?
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    This is exactly my point!!!
    No, you don't understand. I'll explain once again. I am saying that a missionary does church planting. Timothy (by your definition) was an evangelist. As you have aptly shown, he did many things in the church that Paul planted, no doubt including evangelism (a must if he is an evangelist, right?). However, Timothy did not plant the church. (Church growth and church planting are most definitely not the same.) Therefore he was not a missionary even if I concede that he was an evangelist (which I do not).

    Does this now make sense to you? I'd really like to continue the debate if we can pay attention to each other's views and seek to understand them. If we can't, then this is not a debate, it's a futile exchange of mis-understood posts.
    Absolutely not. Please go back in this thread and read my clear definitions of missionary and evangelist. A missionary is a church planter and an evangelist is a specialist in evangelism. They are two separate offices and professions. I feel I have been very clear in this.
     
  6. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    We could compare how many death threats we have had on account of the gospel, but it matters not. Each of us is merely an unprofitable servant, kept alive by the Lord, and in the place where the Lord wants some work done.

    We could talk off-line about this if you like.

    I am reading a book right now titled "Workmen of God" by Oswald Chambers, it may be of some help to you.

    The one below.
    BGTF
     
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    As long as we are both glorifying God through our lives and seeking to do His will, that is what matters most. My goal with this thread is that of the Apostle Paul when he said, "I glorify mine office" (but not himself of course). I believe that the offices of evangelist and missionary ought to both be glorified since it is God who instituted them, and in order to do that we must understand what they are Biblically.

    If you want to discuss it off line and ask more about my position, please feel free to PM me.
    Thanks, I appreciate that. He is a good author and I'll keep that book in mind. Right now, though, I'm quite backed up on books I really need to read.
    Amen! Glad to hear that!

    Of course the authority for baptism would take an entire 'nother thread, so all I will say is to note what I did before, that Matthew's commission was given specifically to the 11, who were the leadership of the first church at Jerusalem.
     
  8. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    My purpose here was not to glorify the missionary (though I magnify my office), but to show how different our job is from that the evangelist in the home country.

    The evangelist: is a specialist in mass and personal evangelism (see the life of Philip), who ministers to the churches (Eph. 4:11). Therefore he is likely to hold evangelistic meetings in churches, tents and auditoriums. He may hold seminars on personal evangelism and write books on it. He seeks revival of the church and believers so that more souls will be saved for God's glory, therefore his preaching may be sharper and harder at times than the pastor--he can say some things the pastor dare not.

    The church-planting missionary in the mold of Paul: does pioneer evangelism, usually cross-culturally (though I believe there is a place for home missions). He starts a church from scratch, with the goal of bringing it to independence with a national pastor (the three selfs: self-supporting, self-propagating, self-governing). Therefore he must also mentor and train young men for the pastorate. He himself must also be a pastor as long as he is planting the church. All of this points to a very different skill set than that of the evangelist mentioned above.
     
  9. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    John

    This is said with a large wail, .....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

    The three self patriotic movement was initialized by the Chinese government in the 50's with the aim of removing foreign influence in China, and instituting governmental control over the church.

    This isn't the most complete info, but it is introductory on the topic.
    http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/three-self.htm

    "Come wind, Come weather" by Leslie T. Lyall about the present experience of the church in China has a great summation of the "three self movement".

    If you can't access the book there, I will type it into a PM for you.


    BGTF
     
    #29 ByGracethroughFaith, Nov 17, 2007
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  10. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but you are wrong. The "three self" statements and philosophy were coined by a missionary named Henry Venn long before the Chinese Communists got ahold of them. The communists stole the "three self" terminology and used it for their own wicked purposes. I am well aware of the situation in China, have distributed Bibles (mainland simplified script) and given tracts to many Chinese here in Japan, etc.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Self_Patriotic_Movement (The facts about Venn are also in the link you gave me.)
     
    #30 John of Japan, Nov 17, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 17, 2007
  11. ByGracethroughFaith

    ByGracethroughFaith New Member

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    I realize the 'three self' statements were coined by Venn 100 years earlier, but when you mentioned a national pastor it sounded eerily like the TSPM, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.


    BGTF
     
  12. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    I'm amazed! You need to meet more cross-cultural missionaries. To a missionary it would not sound like the TSPM at all. We independent Baptist cross-cultural church planters use the term "national pastor" all the time, and I've never heard anyone compare that term to the TSPM. In Japan we use it to refer to any Japanese pastor at all.

    Our goal is to work ourselves out of a job, and turn the church over to a national pastor. "National pastor" is more polite nowadays than the old term "native pastor." It's as simple as that. :type:
     
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