Mistakes made by Calvinists AND Arminians

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by whetstone, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    To begin with, I was a 4 point arminian for 22 of my 23 years so I am well accustomed to what all of it entails. Now that I understand and accept the doctrines of grace, I feel that there are certain things that just 'go wrong' in this entire debate. Here are a few things:

    #1- When one side assumes the other side doesn't believe the Bible is true. Let's be honest, to be an Arminian you don't have to reject the Bible. The same is true as a Calvinist. I believed the Bible was 100% true in my years as an Arminian and I think I am even more convinced of this as a Calvinist. The questions raised in discussions on sovereignty ultimately fall on interpretation of scripture- not validity of scripture. When both sides recognize this they can begin to intelligently debate without namecalling.

    #2- When either side will debate endlessly about something they haven't studied. I'll be honest- I was a wise fool when I held my Arminian viewpoint. I thought I had the right answer just because it was MY answer- and hadn't read more than a few articles on the subject. It wasn't until I did extensive study into the matter by reading books from both sides, pamphlets, webpages, etc. that I realized how deep the issue really is. As an Arminian I wouldn't have been convinced by an ignorant Calvinist- and as a Calvinist I don't give a second glance to ignorant Arminians.

    #3- Ultimately only scripture will convince. Your oft-repeated post, "You just need to see the light" doesn't mean squat. When I was an Arminian- it wasn't the words of Calvinists (in person or in books) that convinced me of the doctrines of grace. It was good old fashioned Bible study. Recognize this when you debate. You may offer suggestions- but no one will change their mind unless they let God work on their heart.

    #4- Both sides have bad examples- so don't appeal to argument from 'people who believe like you do are this way.' Let's face it- on one end of the spectrum you have hyper-Calvinists that refuse to witness because it's all in God's hands anyways, and on the other side you have people afraid to witness because they may inadvertantly send someone to hell (seen this personally). Either extreme is dangerous. It is said that hyper-Calvinism is a house with no door, and Arminianism is a door with no house. Recognize in your debates that pointing to extreme examples of the 'opposition' is pointless. The question should be: Is Calvinism scriptural?

    #5- Recognize what you are. If you had told me I was an Arminian when I WAS an Arminian I would have scoffed at you. Why? Because I didn't even have my definitions right. I hear many Arminians say, "I'm a Biblicicst." Well, so am I, but we're not talking about your view of the Bible- but election. Simply put- the word "Arminian" is used to denote a person who has objections to Calvinism (any of the 5 points in TULIP). Some people call themselves 1, 2, 3, or 4 point Calvinists- but this is problematic. The 5 stand or fall together. Don't label yourself if you don't understand the label- and don't deny a label on such grounds either. I personally do not like the term 'Calvinist' but understand that it must be used to denote someone that accepts the doctrines of grace. On this same note, an Arminian should not get upset at that term either- He follows Jacob Arminius no more than a Calvinist follows John Calvin. These are terms of convenience and should be understood by both sides if fruitful debate is desired.

    I'm sure you can think of other areas both sides need to work on. These are just some of my thoughts in the matter.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  2. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Anyone's thoughts?
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is no such thing as a 1 year old Arminian! No one is born Arminian, no one is born Calvinist. You open your post with this kind of comedy and expect us to assume you have any credibility? Furthermore, your youth belies any image of wisdom you perceive to own.

    INDOCTRINATION is a powerful tool! Especially when employed by religion. Muslim's use it all the time. When one is so indoctrinated, they lose all perspective of truth! You are indoctrinated into Calvinism! You therefore have only a Calvinist perspective of truth! And that is not the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, it is truth according to Calvin!

    Scripture has not convinced you because you reject most of scripture, holding fast to only that scripture that supports your adopted Calvinism. You said that you read books from both sides, and that purely and simply says you did not rely on scripture to be convinced! YOU were guided to your conclusions by the books that you perceived to be the most convincing!

    The answer is NO! Calvin's name does not appear in scripture even once! Your chastisement of those on this BBS is what is expected from a youthful Calvinist zealot.

    You simply do not know what you are talking about. Anyone who follows the principles of another is a disciple of the one who's principles are being followed. Calvinist and Arminian adherents are the disciples of Calvin and Arminius respectively.
     
  4. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    I must admit Wes that your comments are a tad more venemous than usual. Wake up on the wrong side of the bed today?

    Alright, you are correct that I had no 'beliefs' at age 1 but I certainly did at age 5 (when I got saved), so perhaps I might revise my statement 'I have been an Arminian 17 out of the 18 years I've been saved.' Getting upset so soon proves that you are approaching this debate emotionally instead of logically. This is a common trademark of zealous Arminians. Now the question is: do I lack credibility for my age? I am probably at the age many men begin preaching (out of Bible school). I am 7 years older than Charles Spurgeon was when he began preaching. Does age have any bearing on truth? I don't recall the scriptures ever saying that 23 year olds were incapable of discovering truth. Perhaps you could enlighten me o old and wise one?

    I agree that indoctrination IS a powerful tool. I had been indoctrinated to Arminianism but it was by study I became a Calvinist. You can read that story here: http://www.pre-evangelism.com/learn/theology_articles/soteriology/calvinismsub/howcalvinist.htm

    I marvel at how emotional you seem. Such foolish words shouldn't come from someone so old.

    Scripture was what convinced me Calvinism was true. Books verified what I found in scripture. I sought to fully understand all of the nuances of election and therefore made it a personal study. This is not wrong to do. I had not read a single book for or against Calvinism when I became a Calvinist. I simply read the NT through twice and when confronted with TULIP for the first time realized, 'This is Biblical.' Those who claim Calvinists believe what they do on a lack of scripture are ignorant. Here is my scriptural proof: http://www.pre-evangelism.com/learn/theology_articles/soteriology/whycalvinist.htm

    This quote finally reveals your ignorance to the doctrines of grace. Not a single Calvinist relies on John Calvin for the truth of free grace- and not one Calvinist claims to follow John Calvin. We did not invent the term 'Calvinist' just as we did not invent the term 'Christian.' You use this term to refer to people who believe how we do. But then I explained all this in #5 of this thread. Were you reading or busy yelling at the monitor?

    I can find the doctrines of grace in many of the words of Christ, so from hense (with you) I will call it 'Christianism.' Please tell me why you hate me and my Christianism?

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  5. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    I said,
    You respond with, Now the question is: do I lack credibility for my age? I am probably at the age many men begin preaching (out of Bible school). I am 7 years older than Charles Spurgeon was when he began preaching. Does age have any bearing on truth? I don't recall the scriptures ever saying that 23 year olds were incapable of discovering truth. Perhaps you could enlighten me o old and wise one?</font>[/QUOTE]Wisdom is what you are lacking, not bravado, and not knowledge! With age, bravado and wisdom change places, knowledge becomes more measured. You have truth all around you but lack the wisdom to understand it. So to answer this question you ask do you lack credibility? As an observer, my answer is YES you do lack the credibility! The reason is simple, you are a disciple of someone other than the Christ! You are a disciple and devotee of Calvin, Spurgeon, and any others you choose to cite as your mentors. Therefore you are not a true disciple of the Christ which is the standard measure of credibility among Christians!
     
  6. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Been to your website, found nothing of interest. Your estimation of my words reflect your immaturity! That is forgivable, consider yourself forgiven!
     
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hate you? I don't hate you, I don't know you, and have no reason to hate you. But as for your Christianism? Not sure I take to that too well. Anyone who puts limitations on God, His Son, His Holy Spirit, and His Completed work, by claiming it was done for only some nebulous person, persons or groups, or those 'predetermined' to benefit by it, simply does not know the God of the bible Who loves all, has grace for all, has mercy for all who love him, and justice for those who are determined to face it. The God who Freely gives the gift of Salvation from the second death for all who have faith in His Son, even on the name of his Son
     
  8. Rich_UK

    Rich_UK
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/6181.jpg>

    Joined:
    May 26, 2003
    Messages:
    389
    Likes Received:
    0
  9. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Whetstone;
    Maybe I can help you with your problem. Bluntly it seems you went from Bad to Worse. No matter how hard man tries to straighten out his own life it only winds up worse in the end. My Advise is to stop trusting in old dead men and start trusting In Christ to lead you to the truth. Don't take my word for it take God's
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  10. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope Mike and Wes- you guys can see that you've taken what I felt was general admonition to both sides and turned it around as a personal attack on my age and who I supposedly follow. I follow Christ (if that wasn't clear by this point). I became a Calvinist because I read the Bible. I haven't read much of anything by John Calvin and only some from Spurgeon. If you were to ask what the single most voluminous source I've studied in my research on election I would have to reply: "The writings of Paul." I have other threads to reply to so I'll let your attacks stand for others to see and marvel at.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
    www.pre-evangelism.com
     
  11. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    whetstone;
    This spoken by a man who posted all these Calvinist names and he expects us to believe him too;
    Will wonders never cease [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Mike
     
  12. whatever

    whatever
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Daniel,

    There's no use trying to discuss anything with either of those two. Anything you have to say will not be as important to them as what they have to say. They simply aren't interested in a rational discussion of anything, at least from what I have seen.

    As for your opening post, I agree wholeheartedly with your premises. I do question your definition of an Arminian as "a person who has objections to Calvinism (any of the 5 points in TULIP)". The five points of Arminianism were around first. If one must accept all five points of TULIP to be a Calvinist then why musn't one accept all five points of DAISY (God loves me, God loves me not, ...) to be an Arminian?

    whatever
     
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Then you need to expand your horizon because you have now done what Paul himself told you to NOT DO! You have aligned with Paul, becoming a disciple of Paul, and not a disciple of Jesus, to whom Paul directs us!

    Do you not understand what it means when you take on the name of someone other than Jesus? You lose focus on Jesus and redirect your focus to the name you have taken. You call yourself a Calvinist! If you are a Christian you will not do that!
     
  14. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wes- I don't call myself a Calvinist. You do remember? I call myself a Christian.

    "Whatever," thanks for your comments. While the 5 points of Arminianism were definitely around before TULIP, they were created in opposition to the doctrines of grace (even if they weren't put down systematically). I see where you're coming from tho. Semantics really. [​IMG]

    Dan
     
  15. Kiffen

    Kiffen
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    641
    Likes Received:
    0
    To get back to whetstone's original thread.....

    Both Arminians and Calvinists have been guilty of misrepresenting one another.

    Arminian Misreprentations of Calvinists

    1. Calvinists deny Whosoever Will May Come
    2. Calvinists don't believe in Evangelism

    Calvinist Misreprentations of Arminians
    1. Anyone who denies TULIP is a Arminian
    2. Arminianism is another Gospel

    The fact is God has used both Calvinists (Edwards, Carey, Whitefield, Spurgeon) and Arminians (Menno Simmons, Wesley, Helwyls) in His kingdom work. I abhor Arminian theology but at the same time realize God has used them for his work. I am actually more comfortable with Classical Arminian theology than the modern day Arminian theology that is prevalent in the SBC.

    Arminians are often guilty of reading books about Calvinism by someone who completely distorts TULIP but having never read a Book by a Calvinist and among Baptists they ignore the fact that the great Mission enterprises among us was built by Calvinists such as William Carey.
     
  16. El_Guero

    El_Guero
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    whetstone

    Can we quote you on that?
     
  17. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sound familiar?

    What else would you have us believe?
     
  18. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Hi Wes;
    Whetstone must have been convicted for calling an Arminian. Now he wants to be called a Christian.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  19. whetstone

    whetstone
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/11288.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2005
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am man enough to admit when I have inadvertantly contradicted myself. Allow me to clear up what I meant by 'I don't call myself a Calvinist.' When faced with a choice, I will call myself a Christian and do not cling to the term Calvinism. I know that the term must be used of convenience so you will know what we are talking of. I do not wear 'calvinism' as a badge of honor. I follow the doctrines of grace laid out in the Bible that is today called 'Calvinism.' It may so be called something else in 50 years. When that happens I will grudgingly use that title to describe my beliefs (tho preferably still a Christian). The reason my article is called 'why I am a Calvinist' is because no one would have any idea where I stand at a glance if I titled the article, 'why I believe the Biblical view of election.' I suppose I could change the title of the article but I have better things to do. Forgive me for the faux pas. I am only human after all ;)

    Better to contradict myself than to contradict the scriptures.

    In Christ,

    Daniel Allen
     
  20. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well said Dan,
    You are a Christian brother, and we acknowledge you as such. We differ with you on the way that you define your beliefs. And I suppose that is perfectly alright that we do have differing views.

    The problem that I have with the scriptures Calvinism uses for support is that most of them are taken as "stand-alone" declarations, when in reality they are a mere brushstroke in a wall mural. You would be wise to look at them from that perspective.

    Not all of Calvism is incorrect. Some of it I have no contention with whatever. However my faith which is just as solid as anyones faith is not based on Calvin's viewpoint, but rather on my own knowledge and experience with God, without Calvin and without Arminius, without Spurgeon, etc. The way I see it, none of those "Giants of Calvinism" or "Arminianism" is able to come to my defense in God's courthouse. Paul cannot offer any defense either. There is but one Advocate that matters and that is Jesus. So I rely on what Jesus says, while most of Calvinism relies on what Paul says.
     

Share This Page

Loading...