Mixing Faith With Hearing

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Ray Berrian, Nov 9, 2005.

  1. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hebrews 4:1-2 is a sterling passage indicating that faith is from the heart of a human sinner and not the declaration and gift from the Lord.

    The Greek word for 'mixed' indicates, says, Dr. James Strong to mean {commingle}. These Hebrew people refused to mix their faith with the hearing of the Lord's truth and made themselves worthy of eternal destruction.

    Grace is the offered gift of God [Ephesians 2:8].
     
  2. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,052
    Likes Received:
    36
    Sorry Ray. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states that our faith is not of ourselves but the gift of God.

    "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)
     
  3. Cross Man

    Cross Man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    That is hardly possible. The genders do not agree. "THIS" refers back to the fact of having been saved. Salvation is a gift of God.
     
  4. Cross Man

    Cross Man
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2005
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    I always found it interesting that the writer of Hebrews equates faith with obedience:

    Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, UNBELIEVING heart that falls away from the living God.... And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT? So we see that they were not able to enter because of UNBELIEF..... the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by FAITH in those who heard.... Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of DISOBEDIENCE.... Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of DISOBEDIENCE.

    And then the writer finishes off this warning to them by reminding them of judgment day when Jesus will judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart:

    For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
     
  5. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

    "through" - by reason of, due to, on account of.

    Our salvation is "due to" faith, faith is a prerequisite for obtaining salvation. Faith must be present first before we receive salvation. "THIS" refers back to "salvation through faith," both are not from yourselves.
     
  6. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    To obtain employment one usually completes an application, it is through this application that the employer may decide to hire you.

    You certainly don't need a high school education to understand this.
     
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Should we trust a layman who never studied Greek or Dr. A.T. Robertson "Word Pictures In The New Testament" p. 525,

    'For by grace (tei gar chariti). Explanatory reason. "By the grace" already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (dia pisteos). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. "Grace" is God's part, "faith" ours. And that (kai touto). Neuter, is not feminine {taute}, and so refers not to pistis {feminine} or to charis (feminine also), but tothe act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humon, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God's gift (doron) and not the result of our work.' [End Quote from the Southern Baptist professsor].

    Reread this for clarity. Grace is God's part; faith is our involvement in this covenant with the Lord God. A covenant never becomes affective until a human being responds to said gift of grace coming from the Triune Godhead.
     
  8. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have grace coming before faith, its not that way, it is faith before salvation.

    Robertson has it right.

    "Condition" - necessary situation or stipulation.

    Faith is necessary in order to be saved by grace.
     
  9. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    You are both right. God's grace came way before our faith was present, and our faith is what is required by God for salvation
     
  10. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Regeneration never, ever takes place before a sinner places his or her faith in Jesus.

    It is only after believing that we do not perish and have everlasting life [John 3:16].
     
  11. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm done with you two. Actually our faith, God's grace, salvation, regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are simultaneous. You cannot have one without the others. Bye.
     
  12. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    If we can believe the N.T., and we can trust in His message to us, the Apostle Peter does not speak of faith as being God's and then given to sinners, but rather He speaks of this trust in Him as 'Your faith . . .' suggesting that it comes from the rational, volitional agent, the human being.

    This truth is set forth in I Peter 1:7,9, and 21.

    'That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perisheth . . .'

    'Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.'

    And thirdly, 'Who by Him do believe in God Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.'

    While grace comes from the Lord [Ephesians 2:8] the Holy Spirit helps the sinners see his need of Christ [John 16:8] and requires of the lost soul to respond in a faith trust relationship in order to lay hold on the covenant Lord God [Acts 2:21 & Acts 16:31]. The Holy Spirit enables the sinner to repent and turn from his or her sins [John 16:8] and to cleave to Jesus as the only Source of salvation and eternal life [I John 5:13].
     
  13. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did not realize we were saved by our works. If faith is the result of a rational human being then it is by a human work we earn the right to recieve God's grace.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    False. Receiving a gift by definition means no work was involved. That is the same faulty thinking of calvinists.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chemnitz,

    You may not understand but people like "Webdog" and me have studied the meaning of grace and clearly know that it is the Lord's unmerited favor toward those who believe. There is nothing we can do to contribute toward or later add to our salvation to insure its safe keeping in our hearts/lives. We can never merit never ending life. This being true please don't 'beat the horse to death' meaning "webdog" and me.

    It is all too obvious that people like you always skirt the Scripture that we use to back up our claim that we must be a respondent in order to receive His inestimable gift of Himself and eternal life.

    Give it your best shot at trying to explain the Scripture in my former post, dated November 11, 2005, 9:27 a.m.

    Did the Apostle Peter say, 'God's faith . . .' given or 'Your faith . . . ?' [I Peter 1:7,9 & 21].
     
  16. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    And yet you take and turn faith into a human work, therefore, faith as the only means by which we can recieve God's grace makes it a means of earning God's grace.

    Hebrew 4:1-2 doesn't even touch on the source of faith. It only describes a people who have rejected the promise.

    A gift once given belongs to the person who it was given. I can call it mine all I want for it is mine but I recieved it as a gift, I did not make a rational decision to get it. It came from God as a gift.

    This is the most debated test in terms of the antecedento fthe demonstrative pronoun, touto. The standard interpretations include (1) "grace" as antecendent, (2) "faith" as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace by faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto having adverbial force with no antecedent ("and especially").

    The first and second options suffer from the fact that touto is neuter while chariti and piteos are feminine. Some have argued that the gender shift causes no problem because there are other examples in Greek lit. in which a neuter demonstrative refers back to a noun of a different gender, and the touto has been attracted to the gender of doron, the predicate nominative. These two arguments need to be examined together.

    While it is true that on rare occasions there is a gender shift between antecedent and pronoun, the pronoun is almost always caught between two nouns of different gender. ONe is the antecedent; the other is the predicate noun i.e. Acts 8:10 and Matt 13:38. The construction of Eph 2:8, however, is not parallel becasue doron is not the predicate nom. of touto, but of the implied "it" in the following clause. On a Grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either "faith" or "grace" is the antecedent of touto.

    More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics Wallace, 334-5


    Since touto, refers to both than neither can be the result of any human effort, which means faith cannot be as you state the result of a rational human mind.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    Whoever honestly says they do not know what they did and experienced when they received Christ, probably has never been saved.

    The Lord calls for obedience, faith, trust and repentance. Since they are commands by Jesus they can never be called a 'work' leading to faith and even if it is considered a decision it is in compliance with the will of Almight God leading to salvation and eternal life.

    No one forces a sinner to believe; God through the Apostle John merely says, 'Whosoever believes in Him will not perish . . .'

    If he would not have required that we believe He could have, without our knowing it, simply decreed His will for only the elect to be saved, without our even knowing or experiencing faith in His Son.

    When God call me to witness to other people about His salvation, I do not consider that a labor/work but merely doing as He demands/requests of one who has been transformed by the grace of Jesus Christ.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  18. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where did you come up with that non-sense? Obeying a command means doing work, no matter who gives the command. A commandment is a law, and for a law to be obeyed work must be done.

    Whoever states the above will only lead people into despair. For who ever hears the above and believes that it is their decision that created faith will only despair everytime they experience doubt for they will forever wonder did they really decide to follow Christ. Salvation is based on the promises of God, not by an experience or by what a person does. Thank goodness it is not based on the decision of a rational human mind, for there is no such thing as a rational human mind and there never will be until the 2nd coming, because all minds until that time are bound by sin. No person by their reason or strength can come to believe in Jesus Christ. It is only through the work of the Holy Spirit that faith can happen.

    Of course anybody who replies in the way you did, is obviously trying to compensate for a position they realize is weak.
     
  19. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,178
    Likes Received:
    0
    '. . . for there is no such thing as a rational human mind and there never will be until the 2nd coming.'

    Your statment above is like a philosophical statement. You cannot prove you live in Florida or that you are a human being.

    Everything we have in Christ through the Word of God is taken on the basis of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. [Hebrews 11:6] Here does man have to go to the Lord? Does the sinner have to seek Christ? Yes and yes!

    But, of course, we know the Holy Spirit is active on the life of a sinner before that one can come to the Lord.

    If faith were the gift of God rather than grace it would make {Hebrews 11:6a} sound stupid! Faith is most definitely the human response to the Lord'gift of grace. [Ephesians 2:8]

    As the Bible says, 'Seek the Lord while He may be found.' Faith in Jesus is your responsibility not God's; He has done all that is needed. He has given to us His Son and the Word of God to lead us to Him.
     
  20. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mr, Berrian,

    If you question my honesty and salvation again, I will complain to the moderators.

    The greek grammars do not agree with you.

    Hebrews 11:6 does not say a thing concerning the source of faith and so is not pertinant to the discussion.
     

Share This Page

Loading...