MMF - Another rock n roll topic

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Revolt, Jun 20, 2002.

  1. Revolt

    Revolt
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    Ok so I see Aarons point of veiw that Rock n Roll had evil roots. but is it possible that God could take something that was once bad and use them for his purpose? Dosent he take the riches of the wicked and give them to the righteous.

    I know of a place that used to be a strip club but it has been turned into a christian youth club. Kids get saved there all of the time. Is this place wicked because its original use was evil? When the gospel is preached there are the kids expossed to lust because that was the original intent of the place?

    [ September 14, 2002, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]
     
  2. Aaron

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    The answer to your question is, of course, but the thing is not left in its former state.

    The building, once used for gross sensuality, has had the sensual elements removed.

    Remove the sensual elements from music, (e.g. rock beat, intense volume, effeminate and lax harmonies) and the music is good.

    Satan uses sensuality. He savours those things that be of men. That is why rock music was chosen as the vehicle to usher in the counter-culture. It is sensual. Sensuality cannot be used in the worship of God.

    [ June 20, 2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  3. SorryDude

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    Sensual?How is CCM sensual?
     
  4. Revolt

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    Aaron first of all thanks for granting my request in the other forum. [​IMG]

    I understand where you are comming from, and I am not trying to come off as disrespectful to you or what you belive.

    I just dont see it. I actually enjoy all kinds of music from old hymns to the most extreem heavy metal there is.

    I do lights for a local Christian band called allysonhymn (pronuced all eyes on him, have never felt any kind of sensual vibe or anything like that from their music

    I could see how lyrics could promote senuality, but music?

    please dont take this the wrong way but doesnt song of solomon suggest alot of senuality and isnt that a mirror of Christ love for us. Shouldnt a love song for our savior be just that a love song?

    [ June 20, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Revolt ]
     
  5. Eric B

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    OK, what's this, now? :confused: :confused: :confused:
     
  6. JValen

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    As far as sensuality, honestly speaking, MUSIC is
    for the senses. I hear many attractive Christian singers with sensual-seeming voices and that are good-looking. It is not evil to be attractive. It is evil to lust. We are all sinners, so how can we go around lying thinking there are no attractive people, attractive voices or that music can't have a passionate tempo. God knows our hearts and minds. If you feel a song makes you sin,or seems sexual, you shouldn't hear it, but to label all Rock, rap or reggae or any music
    evil, is satan's way to try to take God given talents and label them HIS EVIL MUSIC. These instruments are all from God. If a song/instrument sounds evil, don't hear it. If some like louder or stronger beats that is nobody's business. It's praise in the hearts of men for Christ that really counts! Many of us that grew up on worldly
    have a hard time hearing certain Christian songs cause it reminds of us of the secular ones. Just
    have FAITH that God will conquer our battles.

    [ June 20, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: JValen ]
     
  7. Aaron

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    When I say "sensuality," I am not referring merely to those things that we can observe using our five senses. I am referring to those things that entice our animal apetites.

    Someone above likened attractive music to attractive people. There are beautiful people, and then there are beautiful people in sensual poses or dress, or in other ways enticing the lusts of the flesh. The Scriptures call that "defrauding." And though it is no sin to be beautiful, it is a sin to defraud your brother (1 Thess. 4:6).

    There is beautiful music, then there is beautiful music dressed up to entice our lusts. But then some, like hard rock or heavy metal, is there merely for the animal in us. There is nothing beautiful in those depraved forms of entertainment. It's the musical equivalent of cock-fights.

    Now, concerning Revolt's appraisal of his own situation. He says he see's nothing "sensual" in any of this. There is a Biblical principle at work here. The Scriptures state that by practice or constant exposure one can desensitize or "sear" his conscience.

    Alexander Pope wrote:

    Sin is a monster of such awful mien (Pronounced "meen")
    That to be hated needs but to be seen.
    But seen to oft, familiar with face,
    We first endure, then pity, then embrace.


    I would submit that Revolt's immersion into the culture has desensitized his conscience to these things. He naturally would not "see" them as sensual.

    [ June 21, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  8. Matticus

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    Personnally, i find a lot of hard rock quite beautiful. It all depends on how the artist creates the music. It is all in what one considers to be beautiful. To me, any music that is praising God is beautiful. That includes everything from Hymns to heavy metal like P.O.D.

    God Bless
    Matt
     
  9. Revolt

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    If thats how you feel about me I really dont see how much further this discussion can go :(

    I am interested to hear your thoughts on my other question though

    please dont take this the wrong way but doesnt song of solomon suggest alot of senuality and isnt that a mirror of Christ love for us. Shouldnt a love song for our savior be just that a love song?
     
  10. Aaron

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    Sorry, bud. But you brought your own feelings into the argument. I had to answer them. But don't take it personal.

    The Rabbi's ("them of old time" as the Scriptures refer to them) would not allow a young man to read the Song of Solomon until he was 30 years old. The reason being they are so easily misunderstood by novices.

    But to answer your question, no they are not sensual. Certainly our view of them is tainted with our own sinful tendencies, but to think this love song might contain elements intended to satisfy our animal lusts is erroneous. Adam and Eve were naked in the garden, but once their perceptions were stained with sin, God made clothes for them. By far the best "comentary" on the Song and a most proper and perfect interpretation of them can be found in Hanna Hurnard's Hind's Feet on High Places.

    [ June 22, 2002, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]
     
  11. Aaron

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    OK, what's this, now? :confused: :confused: :confused: </font>[/QUOTE]Much like that characteristic of, but not limited to, New Age music. But most of the soft pop songs incorporate them. Celine Dion's songs drip with them.
     
  12. Eric B

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    I king of have an idea of what you're saying, but specifically, what is "effeminate" and "lax"? (and wouldn't it be OK for Celine Dion to use "effeminate" harmonies since she's famale?)
     
  13. SorryDude

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    "Someone above likened attractive music to attractive people. There are beautiful people, and then there are beautiful people in sensual poses or dress, or in other ways enticing the lusts of the flesh"

    Yes, but now you are thinking of secular music more then CCM. Most of the time i have never even seen a picture of the person that wrote the CCM song that i am listening to.
     
  14. DHK

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    I grew up in the rock culture too. Rock was one of the first things to go. You rightly identify growing up on worldly (things or music). That is precisely why CCM is wrong. It is of the world. When a person gets saved he becomes a new creature in Christ. Old things are passed away; all things are become new. The Bible goes on to say, "Love not the world neither the things that are in the world..." "For whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." CCM is simply an attempt to put Christian lyrics to worldly music. It doesn't work.
    DHK
     
  15. Poor Richard

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    Guys, excuse me for sticking my head in the door, but...

    As a professional musician for the past 25 years, and having played piano and organ in everything from Catholic and Episcopal churches to Jewish synagogues (not to mention my BA in Music Ed from CUNY), I can't help throwing my 2 cents in.

    Aaron's observation, that there is an ungodly sensuality inherent in some music, is accurate, for the following reason:

    Music [that is, what you hear, and not what you see onstage, or printed on a staff] is such an abstract phenomenon that it eludes a single common classification.

    Call it art, esthetic beauty, emotive, communicative, therapeutic, mentally stimulating, or a vechicle for dancing, marching, story-telling, or for quelling our discomfort in elevators or the dentist's chair--it is all of these. Because by nature, it transcends our three dimensional world: it is therefore not temporal in nature, but eternal. Want proof?

    Paul taught us that the things which are seen are temporal [2 Cor 4.18], while the invisible things are eternal; music is invisible, so much so that if you try right now, you can hear it playing in the corridors of your brain: just remember your favorite song, and you'll "hear it".

    Einstein, as you may know, credited his General Theory of Relativity to the nature of music. He said as was listening to music (he was a lover of the classical violin), and pondering its nature, he intuitively arrived at his theory. Great physicists had for years tried to develop such a theory by calculation, but Einstein simply conceived it in the context of music-- then went about to prove it by the calculus.

    Observe Revelation chapters 5, 14, 15: music survives in heaven. Why? Because it is, by nature, metaphysical, or spiritual: the product of a man's, or God's, or the devil's spirit.

    Not every collection of sounds qualifies as music in this context, but I'm referring to the sounds specifically chosen and arranged by a person. Every person has a spirit, and every person is primarily influenced by other spirits, i.e. God's or satan's. Music is therefore a spiritual product, able also to inluence the spirits of others. This is what Aaron's analysis points to.

    If a man has an intellectual, happy nature, he writes something like Antonio Vivaldi did.

    If a man is inspired by a vision of heaven, you can sense it in his music, like Handel's Messiah.

    If a man is full of patriotic zeal, he writes marches like John Phillip Souza.

    If a man is a hopeless romantic, his music is like Puccini's, or Barry Manilow's.

    If a man loves to dance, (whether he's a good dancer or not!) he writes like Leonard Bernstein.

    If a man is pre-occupied with sex, he writes rock'n roll.

    The list goes on and on, and as many aspects to the human experience there are, there are as many kinds of musical expression of the spirit. Remember how David played the harp for King Saul in 1 Samuel 16?

    And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

    Do you suppose David was playing a rock'n roll riff? No, it was more like a psalm, or hymn, or spiritual song: something the devil hated! My point is this: the source of the music is what determines it's effect, and it is naive and unwise for a Christian to suppose that anybody's music can be sanctified for Christian service.

    Some music is the product of an unholy, lustful spirit, and stands no more use in Christian worship than well-dressed pig at the dinner table.

    [ June 22, 2002, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Poor Richard ]
     
  16. Odemus

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    What is CCM?
     
  17. redwhitenblue

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    CCM are the initials for Christian Contemporary Music....christian music that tends to be upbeat and fast paced.

    Karen
     
  18. Odemus

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    Do Keith Green and Michael Card fall into that category?

    If you get sexually aroused listening to either of them the problem is with you, not the music. Both of those men pour their hearts out to God and it is immediately evident that they glorify Him in what they do.

    I would tend to think that most 'Christian' music these days does fall short of glorifying God but that has nothing to do with drums and guitars.Almost everything I have heard in the past couple years has a mediocre if not totally watered down message where the songs could be interpreted as either romantic or addressing God because they fail to be specific in just who they are singing to.
     
  19. Revolt

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    Ok I am going to post a few of our bands lyrics. You might not agree with the music you can at least agree with the message.

    Lord God, why do you use
    heartache and pain
    to make me see
    what you want me to be

    Lord God how could you go through
    to lose
    your only son
    to die a sinners death
    to put to rest flesh and blood

    though Im in your hand
    pain is something Ill never understand
    though Im in the flame
    Ill praise your name while Im here
     
  20. Eric B

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    Way overgeneralized. (Once again, only classical styles stem from a goos spirit.) The category of "rock" is so broad and not everything is sexual in nature.

    It may not have been what we call "rock", but Hebrew worship was more rhythmic than the classical styles mentioned above.

    What you say above certainly has alot of merit, but you can't single out one style or rhythm type as being what makes it sinful. (for instance, isn't Manilow bordering on soft rock?) There are a lot more factors to it than that.

    [ June 23, 2002, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
     

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