MMF - christian rock is evil

Joey,
Some of what I found when I visited the site you like so much.


Like I said I have been to this site before, and it hasn't changed much, only expanded. I am not familiar with many of the recording artists they talk about, but this is what I do know.

They did seem to have a problem several times that the people they were talking about get paid. i am sure they get paid ttoo, and I am sure anyone who has a job gets paid, so whats the probles? Should a prfessional who is a christian not get paid for their work? What about dostors & lawyers? Have you examined your doctor's life to be sure he's 100% christian in all things? Are you 100% christian in all things? The authors of this site assume they are, and they are the only ons living for God, who read Ho word, or worship and praise Him. And in the process they attack other christians.


==(b) Let him learn to walk BACKWARDS===
So if someone walk backwards now they are satanists?

==Runic (runic means secret) alphabet used in witchcraft and satanism! Only someone involved in the occult would know such an alphabet exists!===
Do you really think the artists on any music chriatian or otherwise do their own art. Now they have a problem with the alphabet.

====The Bible is very clear! A Christian should be separated from the world. ===
Yes, but by whose standard? Theirs? I notice they are part of the world and have a computer. And do they use it godly? No. They use it to bash christians.

====Hey, Smith — of the ten commandments — eight were "THOU SHALT NOT===

Looks like they are into legalism, so were the Pharasees, we are under grace.

Seems their biggest problem here is who the producer produces other then M.W.S. and who the company handles in their business other then M.W.S.,,, but not much on him.

===The Jesus DC Talk "raps" is a hip-hopping, rapping, groovy, "just alright" — FREAK===

I am not in to DC TAlk myself, but have heard a lot of thwir music, they are not calling Jesus a freak as thie site mistakenly sites, but are saying they are freaks for Jesus. Meaning wild about Jesus.

===DC Talk openly admits to watching one of Nine Inch Nails videos, and
We had seen some of Simon's work with Nine Inch Nails"===, says DC Talk
have seen & watch, they sort of twisted around a little the quote they cited

-these do not mean the samething.

I don't know much about the others on their site, and probably if I read everyone on their hit list, it would become obvious thier going to fins something to complain about, even if they have to twist facts, and take comments out of context.
A form of lying.

===Compare that to the Apostle Paul (a REAL Christian) in just the first chapter of 1 Corinthians:====


Making decisions on who is a christian and who isn't, follow what they say or you aren't.
And to think I thought only God knew a man's heart.


===CHRISTIAN MUSIC IS IN THE LOCAL CHURCH — NOT CONCERT HALLS, NIGHT CLUBS,,,,,CCM'ers justify their performing in worldly concert halls, auditoriums, et. al. as "trying to reach the lost". Of course, at the same time they charge $15 - $20, rarely mention Jesus Christ and never, never, never — mention hell, judgement, sin or enough "salvation doctrine" to get anyone saved!.====

Now we live in a rural area, and have been to only a few christian concerts, they were in churches, one a school gym, because the sponsering church was too small, they were both $5.00, and yeas there were people saved at each.


===Christian music should feed the spirit — NOT THE FLESH.==
If it didn't I wouldn't have any use for it.

==but in rock – the rhythm or th beat literally takes over the music.==
So now it's not the words, or the people. But just music in general.


====Michael W. Smith's album, Change Your World, has 2819 words — Jesus occurs — ZERO!
Michael W. Smith's album, I’ll Lead You Home, has 2046 words — Jesus occurs — ZERO!
Michael W. Smith's album, Live the Life, has over 1100 words — Jesus occurs — you guessed it — ZERO!

There is NOTHING CHRISTian about Michael W. Smith's music!====

====Look how clear these songs praise the Lord. And literally thousands of examples could be given:

"Blessed Assurance, Jesus is Mine" by Fanny Crosby
"My Jesus I Love Thee" by Adoniram Gordon
"Wonderful, Wonderful Jesus" by Anna Russell
"Victory in Jesus" by E.M. Bartlett
"Jesus Is All the World to Me" by Will Thompson
"Jesus Is the Sweetest Name I Know" by Lela Long
"Jesus Lover of My Soul" by Charles Wesley =====

Some good hymns, some of my favorites are on the list. But there are many that do not even have Jesus' name in them. Are they satanic too? I wonder if the christians singing them in church evey week know that?

Like I have said, nothing different then chick tracts. I have been to one of his sites that is truely hate filled, Which is what I have seen at this site.

They seek only to tear down. And play the I'm holy and you aren't game.
So what is that verse about loving your brother? Are they showing love to these people or anyone else?

===Rock music for years has propagated 666 — The Mark of the Beast. ===
Good grief, not even worth answering.

So I couldn't find anything about what we are supose to listen too except, that they only suport hymns for music, and music that is in church. So we can sing only hymns, and only in church.
So who can say if what you do for worship(your singing, what songs, where your at, the place you pray, what you say in prayer,[Closet vs. anywhere else?]), is actually worship? Does anyone else know what is coming from your heart to God? The authors of this site seem to think they can.

Glad they read my mind,,, or would that be heart?

Joey said:
Why I think it's demonic is because it doesn't put the feeling of praise and worship in your mind it doesn't provoke the mind to ponder upon the things of God, rather the lusts of the flesh.


Maybe not you. So don't listen too it. But what if it does lead someone else to worship God?
Hey I don't like that 'hard rock' christian stuff either, but satanic, I don't think so. I also don't like bluegrass christian, southern gospel, but I wouldn't bash them either and say they aren't christians(http://www.av1611.org does just that.) This site is more then lacking.

==Wake up!==
Goes beyond just opinion. Tells us we are wrong for listening to christian music.

Of course all this is my opinion, nothing more.

 

Aaron said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>That was not the issue at all. What you are calling "aesthetically pleasing" was more along the lines of "sensual." There is a difference. The decor of a room can be aesthetically pleasing without being sensual. So can music.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But basically, what they are defining as "sensual" is esthetic pleasure (the liveliness). How can they say that the accent of the beat or syncopation by itself is "sensual" to me? It may be sensual to them, and I think that is preciesly the problem. The loudest critcs, such as Watkins with his maniacal screaming, Godwin with his arrogant stubornness, Cloud with his repetitious rambling, themselves admitted to a period of rebellion where they were into the really bad rock with the drugs, and the hippie movement in general. So their consciences are naturally going to be very weak and sensitive, and they will perceive everything as "sensual", even though it may not be to others. The only safe thing then becomes somber old styles. I think it may have been Watkins who said somewhere "I don't condemn it because my flesh doesn't like it, but because my flesh does like it". But that's him. They have a problem. What they are doing is projecting it onto everyone else. Romans 8 and 1Cor.14 address just such an issue, an it is so wrong for them to spend o much time venting their own problems at us, and then trying to increase our "knowledge" so our consciences could be like theirs. This is what the Bible tells us not to do, and yes, I know the younger crowd once forced contemporary sounds into the Church over people's consciences. But 2 wrongs don't make a right, especially then the critical group thinks it has such a monoply on Biblical truth.

Katie wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I am not in to DC TAlk myself, but have heard a lot of thwir music, they are not calling Jesus a freak as thie site mistakenly sites, but are saying they are freaks for Jesus. Meaning wild about Jesus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just what I was saying. They don't know the language, but make judgemnts. Also mocking the phrase "New Thang" ("They don't know how to spell, either"). Is this Christlike? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Like I have said, nothing different then chick tracts. I have been to one of his sites that is truely hate filled, Which is what I have seen at this site.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Godwin is his music writer. But most of his tuff is on freedomministries.com (connected with Spurgeon's church's website. I hear Spurgeon was a good preacher. I hope he wouldn't have condoned such rhetoric).
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So I couldn't find anything about what we are supose to listen too except, that they only suport hymns for music, and music that is in church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you didn't run across the link to the music minitry he avocates with its country sound? (double standard) I would find it for you, but I don't feel like going through that site now.

 

I only used that web site because they contain small clips of the music. I was showing you the music itself. Not what the website has to say. All I can say is if you can listen to it and give glory to God, go for it. Me myself, it disdracts me from God and gets me caught up into the world. So maybe it's just a prefrence thing after all.
God speed.

 

I only used that web site because they contain small clips of the music. I was showing you the music itself. Not what the website has to say. All I can say is if you can listen to it and give glory to God, go for it. Me myself, it disdracts me from God and gets me caught up into the world. So maybe it's just a prefrence thing after all.
God speed.

 

I only used that web site because they contain small clips of the music. I was showing you the music itself. Not what the website has to say. All I can say is if you can listen to it and give glory to God, go for it. Me myself, it disdracts me from God and gets me caught up into the world. So maybe it's just a prefrence thing after all.
God speed.


There, Three times I have said it in a row now, I don't nor have I ever agreed with everything the site said, I used it because it contained clips of music of the type that were in question. Not because I agree with everything they say, Though I do agree with some of it.

 

Eric B

I remembered seeing that (country music) on that site years ago, but couldn't find it, and had already spent enough time there already yesterday.
Counterdictery is what I was thinking about them.
But couldn't find that to show it.

Sme people just have to find somethiing wrong with everyone and everything.
But I guess some would acuse me of the samething. I have been called a nit-picker.

 

Joey M
Then fine.

But I have no problem praising God through christian music. And it in no way leads me to worldlyness, in any way. What it does do is make more sure of my choice to stay away from things of the world in music. I used to be heavey into rock music before I was a christian,and wouldn't touch it now. I have no problem with christian music. Like I said, I don't like bluegrass gospel, or country gospel, but don't have a problem with it, with otheres using it to praise God. I just find it very hard to do with that music. But I wouldn't tell others it's wrong for them to do just because of my opinions about it.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> They showed lots of proof like what rock music does to plants and how it is against nature. They also talked about the lives of the rock singers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly why most of the people on this board who do not have a problem with CCM are so cynical. OR at least dismissive of so called evidence.

We have seen the above "Proof" and realize how ridiculous the "What Rock music does to plants" theory really is for example.

If you are an adult, and have not been able to objectively view the indocrintation of your youth by videos such as mentioned above, you probably should. And while you are at it, don't stop with music. You really need to find out what you believe and stick to that, not what someone once programmed you to believe. Our churches are filled with people who talk the talk and walk the walk, but don't really know why.

 

Dave--you said it, brother! We need to know why we believe what we believe. I handle the music issue in this fashion. If you were to review all of my posts you would see a strong Bible-oriented POV. On occasion I've gotten too stirred up and have consequently made some mistakes, but I have gone back and corrected (and apologized for) those situations. Though I am degreed in music and have 19 years experience, I tread carefully in this music debate. I stay clear of the "effect on plants" arguments. I ask guys like Aaron to handle that scientific/study type of argument. I only deal with Bible principle. Even that is highly controversial due to the difficulty of defining words such as "worldly---fleshly---separation---etc" to the general consensus of those posting and counter-posting. People in this entire music forum need to be careful to avoid "stepping out on to a limb" of speculation and foolish reasoning. You really CANNOT dogmatically define what is "RIGHT" AND "WRONG" music in many instances. You can try, but it will be to no avail and much consternation. Fellow posters beware....

 

At college the other day, the tv was on MTV and P.O.D. (Christian rock band) came on. My friends and I couldn't believe it. The band was decked out in body-covering, grotesque tatoos and there was even a make-out scene in the video. The song never used God's name but said "i feel so alive because of you." We are to assume they mean God. Personally i would never have known it was a "Christian" song if i didn't know it was P.O.D. What I'm getting at is that I believe this in no way glorified God, it does not "reach" people for Christ. What it does is stereotype all Christian music. I get so tired of people referring to any new contemporary or modern christian music as "christian rock." Please, no offense, but this is an obvious lack of research into the issues. Bands like P.O.D. who have compromised their beliefs (no, i'm not referring to fact that rock music is used...i'll be blasted for this but yes, rock music can be used for Christ, but that's not the point here What i mean is that they comprmised their beliefs with the worldly video and lack of anything about God in the video other than a slight reference to someone or something making them alive. Please, don't let this band ruin your whole outlook of Christian music. I'm not going to harp right now on the fact that music styles are not "inherently evil" like so many lead us to believe, but each artist has a job to do, and that is to model Christ's love for others. So once again, please, don't see a new Christian song or group and immediately write them off.

God bless

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: uhdum ]

 

You will find a scholarly treatment of the experiments with plants plus citations to the primary sources in David Tame's book, The Secret Power of Music.

David Tame is a secular musicologist.

 

Superdave,

In '79 there was an experiment in which white lab mice were forced to listen to the Ramones for extended periods. The mice actually exploded.

Mike

 

Mike, are you serious about that mouse? I had never heard that one! Wow! ROFL!

 

Hi, Daniel,

No, that was a gag from a movie that came out in 1979 called "Rock and Roll High School".

The movie was basically put out as one big music video for the Ramones. The plot of the movie was that the evil high school principal was trying to outlaw rock and roll and stop the Ramones from putting on their show at the local theater.

She conducted an experiment in which lab mice were subjected to different bands for extended periods.

It's one of the better scenes in the movie.

They show Rock and Roll High School every now and then on late night cable TV.

By the way, two of the lab mice later tried several times to take over he world.

Mike

 

Thanks for clarifying, Mike. I was highly suspicious of the story!

 

Philipians,

You said...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rock music is not Christian because it could not be catagorized as a hymn or spiritual song. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> In fact, the terms "Christian" and "rock" are not compatable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Jesus Christ and the first church sang a hymn after the first supper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

May I ask which hymn they sang and what it sounded like?

BTW, I didn't realize that the first church had been established at the time of the last supper. Please elaborate.

Mike

 

The "hymns" we find in our church hymnals today do not sound anything like, nor are they arranged in anything close to the same way, as the "hymns" which Jesus and his disciples would have been singing.

Many of the four part "gospel" songs in the hymnals today are re-arrangements of the honky tonk bar dancing and drinking songs of the early twentieth century. Four part "gospel singing" is not mentioned in the Bible anywhere. It wasn't even around until recently.

But I love it.

My mother played the piano for a gospel singing group when I was in elementary and junior high school. Saturdays, they came over to our house for practice. Many, many Sunday afternoons I spent in the pews of one church or another at a "singing" convention, or a Sunday night at another church where her group was leading in worship.

Rock music makes me plug my ears and want to run and hide. But a couple of years ago, I went as a sponsor with our youth group to a Christian concert with a group called the Newsboys. I saw those kids light up and relate to their message, which was clearly and succinctly Christian, in the same way that I warm up to a Southern Gospel band.

Not everything we do has to be evangelistic, but everything we do must glorify the Lord. Some Christian contemporary and rock and Southern Gospel artists are in it for the money and their own glory. It's big business. But the majority are in it to glorify the Lord and their actions and message prove it. So do the results they get.

Wasn't it Paul who said he had become all things to all people in order to save some?

 

Before I was saved, I played in rock bands for my whole life. I have seen & been a part of what happens to people with this music. Music is a powerful, spiritual force. It is not neutral. How can we chide Billy Ghraham for his support of the RCC, & ignore so called "Christian bands" like P.O.D. playing concerts with secular bands like KORN. Christian music should sound like Christian music. It should be used for God's glory, not to show off talent. It should be based on the word of Christ(Col 3:16). I take a lot of heat, even from "fundamental" baptists on this view, but let them mock. I have experience to tell me that rock music cannot be Christian music.

 

Ellis,
If you have seen the Newsboys, than you may understand why I think the people who look at one isolated group and denounce the entire genre are really not that credible. I really don't know or care who POD is or what their music videos look like.

**************************

The Newsboys, Steve Green, Ray Boltz, The Cathedrals, Rich Mullins. They all have very different musical styles, but the messages are very similar. And if you go to see the Newsboys, you are not going to see a bunch of worldly images with the name of God plastered on. They only tour with Christian bands. Their style is definately Rock, but their behaviour is definately not. Are they a little wild when compared to the other mentioned artists. Yes. But not in a way that cancels out what they are getting across. And if the clear message in their music doesn't get through. There will be at least two presentations of the Gospel in plain English. As well as a bona fide invitation.

Would I get up in Church Sunday and sing "Love, Liberty, Disco" in the morning worship service? No, but that doesn't make the music evil, just inappropriate for the goals and atmosphere of that service. Not to mention the tradition. Remember that there is more experience and tradition involved in denouncing CCM than Biblical study and discernment. "We've never done it that way before" is the Seventh Pillar of the Baptist Buddha.

I am not talking about having Jon Bon Jovi sing special music. I am talking about choosing good Christian music that has a correct docrinal message, deep content, and a pleasant sound, and not caring when it was written, who sang it first, or who has burned it onto an 8-track.

The support for the premise of this post is based on very little except for hearsay, limited experience, bad science, and some other "proof" that I think someone sucked out of their thumb and used to sell videos to unsuspecting "conservative" churches.
I could find any number of outrageous things to support or denounce, and find plenty of supporting scripture as long as I control the connotative definitions.

I have appreciated the tone of this thread. It is a rather hot topic, but the conversations have been very calm, even tempered, even cordial. I think this is the type of dialog the BB was intended for. And I pray it continues, as I hunker down into my bomb shelter, and wait for the '88s to come screaming in.