MMF - The neutrality of Music - Instruments yes lyrics no

Reply to: Bob Kauflin's, "Music Is Communicated in a Cultural Context"

Kauflin didn't say a whole lot in this piece. He started out saying that music could evoke emotions conducive to lusts (I say evil emotions). Then he contradicted that saying that it isn't the music, but the culture.

I have already posted evidence that cultural conditioning cannot explain reactions to music. I see no need to repeat it.

Reply to: Bob Kauflin's, "Why Music Affects Us"

More of the same. Simply saying that music affects us because we are culturally conditioned to respond to certain sounds a certain way. Again, I have already replied.

(One thing I have noticed about Kauflin's arguments is the total and complete lack of evidence supporting his views.)

Working on next one.

 

Sularis,

You need to read my posts more carefully. I said that fallen man's emotions are evil because they are polluted with sin.

Appealing to the descriptions of Christ's emotions is beside the point. I readily admit that nothing of His is polluted with sin.

 

Eric,

Simply because a man is saved does not mean that every thing he does or feels is sanctified. The fleshly nature is still present with us.

The point I was arguing was that emotions are not neutral. They are either good or evil.

 

Daniel,

Not sure what you mean. I have yet to mistake someone's anger for joy. Could you elaborate a little?

 

I'm aware that Christians can have carnal emotions, but it appeared that you were implying that emotions are generally evil because of the fall, ("...Therefore it is impossible for any natural feeling or emotion to be turned into the proper channels. They are inherently evil.") so any "emotions" evoked by music must mean the music is bad. Since believers are capable of "...those that are the fruit of God's Spirit." that was my point. You would have to prove that contemporary ("rock", etc.) always produces the carnal emotions even in Spirit filled believers.

 

Reply to Bob Kauflin's "Music, the Beat and Moral Neutrality," by Aaron

 

Aaron: what I am getting at was how you and the CCM crowd appear to be trying to define the undefinable, explain the unexplainable, and are therefore trying to "nail jello to the wall." You can't do it...emotions are too subjective, too fluid, to unpredictable to "buttonhole" in some neat, orderly structure. Don't you (both sides) agree? LMK

 

I do not agree at all. Quite frankly I'm surprised this thought came from you. You don't think I could provoke you to anger? You don't think I could provoke you to love and good works (Heb. 10:24)?

And most certainly your emotions can be turned on or off with music.

 

Is pornography neutral? After all, porn is incapable of repsonsibility for its actions. The very same arguments for moral neutrality in music can be made for anything.

Again, you need to read my posts more carefully. I never said that "music is bad." I have said there is bad music.

Anyway, I'm done in this thread. It's been fun!

[ April 17, 2002, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Aaron, don't leave just yet...I was just getting at how we really CAN'T be DOGMATIC (either pro-CCM crowd or anti-CCM crowd) due to the subjective nature of emotions. That's why you get shot at so much. I used to be the same way until I saw the "straw horse" in all his glory and knew I had to change my expression of opinion and conviction. You have in times past called me a compromiser for that, but in reality I am Biblically careful in my postion. I am trying to learn to avoid isogesis (that is making scripture say what I WANT IT TO SAY). I have come to the CONVICTION that is not "rightly dividing the word of truth." You can't Biblically nail music down to the level you (Aaron) wish you can and at the same time be Biblically faithful. [No, brother, that is not a jab at you personally, just a pointed observation from a brother that really cares for you and admires you...please take it in that meaning...I AM NOT ATTACKING YOU, I promise.]

 

Daniel,

I don't perceive folks who disagree with me as attacking me.

Emotions are real. Certainly there are varying degrees of any emotion, but no one is confused about how he feels. He may wonder why he feels a certain way, but he knows whether he is angry or sad or happy.

I fail to see the subjectivity in any of it.

But let's say, for kicks, that emotions are just as you describe them. All the more reason to be more restricted when allowing musical instruments into Christian assemblies. After all, we must worship in TRUTH, and if music does not contain TRUTH in and of itself, then it fails to meet the criteria of Christian worship.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

I really can't answer your question, Aaron since I am very PRO instrument in the church. I cannot accept the Peter Masters no-instrument policy in a local church that is no longer under the law, but rather under grace.

All that aside, I still think your dogmatism is strong at times. This is due to the reasons I posted in the last couple of posts. (I won't re-has them here...)

I am open to continued discussion (aside from the musical instrument argument---I won't go there)...LMK

 

The Metropolitan Tabernacle (Masters' church) has an organ.

 

Molly, It's the "old paradigm" vs. the "new paradigm".

In the past we said "what is the very best and most Godly set of biblical standards that we can adhere to?

In the present we say "unless you can prove beyone a shadow of doubt with chapter and verse, without controversy, that something is sinful, we're gonna do it".

 

Agreed....so what do we do about this in our churches,is there help? If we try to help in this area,we are problem people. Or do we move to a church that is in agreement with the more conservative concepts of corporate worship?

 

Out of complete curiosity Aaron, what would be considered biblically speaking to be a "bad" emotion?

Also, Music is not like pornography, music would be like the paper magazine which would hold the pornography...the same paper magazine could be used to carry the gospel of Jesus Christ or a healthy family source for christian growth. Music can either be a healthy source or an unhealthy source which completely depends on the lyrics...which would also carry the spirit in which it's presented. Music is the tool....the lyrics are what the artist is trying to bring across and how they send out the message. Sure music invokes emotions, nothing wrong with that at all, emotions are healthy but the lyrical content will make or break the song.

Karen

 

Karen,do you agree that some songs are better than others,even when they are both about Christ. Do you think some songs promote a more in depth soul searching worship and some a lighthearted,I'm okay your okay mentality? Do some songs go deeper than others? Are some more reverent than others? Are some more biblically correct than others? Are some man centered? Are some more God centered? If,you answered yes to any of those,why not do what is BEST in our churches????? Are some styles more reverent than others? Do drums and electric guitars convey a more godly sound than a piano and/or organ? Do you ever feel distracted by full blown bands and and lots of people in front leading worship,when sometimes simple is better,not louder? Just some questions for you to answer and anyone else that would like to.

 

And,I guess I'm talking more about lyrics and style....not whether or not music is neutral...I tend to agree about how it is a medium to display a given message,but I also see how the medium can bring down the message....so,I'm unsure about all that! Some of you are much more educated on actual music than I am. I just think if the message is good and holy,then the style should fit that holiness and true believers will love it and will worship,they won't need to change the style or beat to get more out of it....but,whether or not the beat is good,wrong,etc....I'm not qualified to say on that. I think the style and message should match.