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Featured Moderation is what helps- not teetotalism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Aug 16, 2013.

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  1. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Yes, it is measurable. Blood alcohol level is the scientific way of measuring it. The police also utilize the "stupid human tricks" test, i.e. touch your nose, walk a straight line, stand on one foot for ten seconds, say the alphabet backwards, etc. You can deny it all you want but it is possible measure drunkenness and possible to drink in moderation.
     
    #81 InTheLight, Aug 18, 2013
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  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    What if your a guy who is uncoordinated :laugh:

    Anyway you can tell them that but a breathalyzer with a video becomes measurable evidence in court.
     
  3. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    You are correct. When I was a student at BJU I remember a teaching in Ministerial class and plenty of chapels where speakers bashed the SBC movement by pointing to the most extreme cases and often books read out f context. I remember one history prof bouncing on Charles Stanley and other SBC, but interesting how his book got few reviews on amazon and sold little to anyone outside of IFB circles. Last I heard his book was recalled. He clearly was bashing people without knowledge. I was ignorant in those days and believed whatever the IFB told me, but I grew and I learned that just because someone drinks alcoholic beverages, and sing in a contemporary mode and they use the NIV to preach does not make them a heretic!

    They bashed all evangelicals at BJU. I remember they hacked at Piper, JI Packer, and no doubt Francis Chan and David Platt (they were not big when I was there).
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    In retrospect, why did they do that? Was it a brain washing exercise? I ask because I don't know much about them but they rode my nephew so hard his first year there that he was run out of the place. He was a sweet kid too & the son of an IFB youth minister. I never got a straight answer from the parent's. It just seems that when something bad happens, they dummy up & dismiss the whole ugly episode.
     
    #84 Earth Wind and Fire, Aug 18, 2013
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  5. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Sorry to disappoint you, but I have never had a DUI, never taken drugs, and never had marijuana found in my car. (or cocaine for that matter)

    My father was an electronics engineer and did not allow such nonsense as a minor.

    As far as sex partners go, I believe I posted that some areas have room for moderation, and some areas are absolutes. Again, common sense and Scripture. Sorry to disappoint you again, but the first time I had a sex partner was my wife the first night after we were married. If you want more details, let me know.
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Oh yea baby :D
     
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
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    Dont recall the details and I threw away the notes that they handed out that session. Perhaps I may have some of the sermons in my iTunes library. If I find a sermon do you have AIM, Yahoo, or Skype? Reason I ask is that the sermons can be large and I have gmail which cant send much.
     
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Dont sweat it, I believe you....I just dont like the way that kid got bullied. I suspect thats the way they do everything around there. I have a motto: How you do one thing is how you do everything....but I have nothing concrete.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What I mentioned were all hypothetical, not direct accusations. I don't need to ask anything.
    You said that you were taught all your life not to drink; never to touch it, etc. So what is the first thing you did once you left home, out from under the influence of your parents? You drank. Is that right?

    My question is what about all the other vices in life: smoking, sex, etc. Why zero in on alcohol? I am sure that if you rebelled against this one single rule then you must have rebelled against many other things. What you are saying doesn't make a lot of sense.
    A parent just doesn't give a child one rule, and hopes he won't break it. You grew up with many rules. But for some reason you are intimating that alcohol is the only rule you rebelled against. Thus your story seems inconsistent.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I was at BJU for about two years. Granted, it was for a post-graduate degree, and therefore I was older than the average student. But I still lived on campus. I appreciated having a high standard of discipline on the campus; teachers that made you think for yourself, etc. As I have said before, the education that BJU offers is unparalleled. Most of the other Bible Colleges acquire their teachers from BJU. Most of its graduates are Baptists. Those that "crack up" are normally those that rebel against the rules. No one is "run out of the place." There is a reason for everything, and always two sides to every story.
     
    #90 DHK, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2013
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    This kid was not rebellious...that is not his demeanor
     
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    What do these verses have to do with this notion of yours that the "weaker brother" is one with a weak will rather than one who is ignorant?

    Where is your exposition?

    I expect more of you than of Winman. Winman can just copy and paste verses. You can do better than that.

    These verses, this whole CONTEXT, does not in any way support this anecdote of yours that the weaker brother is somebody who just can't do in moderation what others can.

    The weaker brother is one who lacks knowledge. Because he is ignorant he thinks things are wrong that are not wrong.

    Paul says this is verse 14- I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.

    The weaker brother is weak because of what he does not KNOW- not because he might become an addict if he does what stronger brethren do.

    This is reiterated in I Corinthians 8:
    So the weaker brother is not one with self-control issues- he is one with knowledge issues. If he understood what stronger brethren understand then his conscience would not bother him. The REASON his conscience bothers him is because he is ignorant of some things.

    So Paul says, "Since he does not have the knowledge you have, be sensitive of this weaker brother."

    How? How are we to be sensitive?

    That's the question you have yet to even ADDRESS much less answer.

    I'll answer it for you.

    Don't do anything in his presence that would cause him to stumble.

    Why "in his presence"?

    Does the text say that? How do we know the idea is not to do these things in his presence?

    Because it is literally impossible to influence someone to do something if they have no earthly idea that you do it.

    But, here's another thing. Paul is writing a LETTER here. A letter to be read in the church. In the church there are weaker brothers who are going to hear Paul say that they lack knowledge and that their conscience is defiled because they lack this knowledge.

    So Paul CANNOT be saying that it is wrong to teach people that things they did not think are okay ARE okay because he DOES THAT VERY THING HERE.

    He says that it is PERFECTLY OKAY to eat meat offered to idols.


    That is what we are saying here. It is perfectly okay to drink in moderation. But don't do it in such a way that you will hurt a weaker brother who is ignorant in this matter.
     
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Smoking in moderation is not a vice. As a matter of fact scientific studies have proven that pipe smokers have a slightly longer life expectancy than NON-smokers.

    Sex is CERTAINLY not a vice if it is done the way God commands: within the bonds of marriage.

    A vice is something you do inordinately.

    Drinking is not a vice.

    Doing DRUGS is not a vice if it is done properly. I have taken oxicontin before- when I had shoulder surgery.

    What you IFB folks lack knowledge about is that NOTHING is unclean in and of itself. It is when you do it inordinately that it becomes a vice and a sin.
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    WHAT???

    Unparalelled?

    That is a matter of opinion and, quite frankly, a very BAD opinion.

    Southern Seminary is a million times better.

    Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary is at least a hundred times better.

    I dare say that ALL of the SBC seminaries offer much better education.

    And the Presbyterians put us all to shame. RTS for example- when you graduate there you can SPEAK Greek and Hebrew.
     
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    NOBTS is a googol better. :)
     
  16. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Well the problem is clear. One who often uses subjective reasoning has come to conclude this to be concise truth. We've seen it in matters of biblical drinking, of opinions in schools and their value, and within more topics. Interestingly yesterday when preaching I told the congregants that Baptists aren't nearly as 'sola scriptura' as they think they are.
     
  17. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Right further review is really unnecessary...we have beat this one to death.
     
  18. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    How do you reconcile this belief with these scriptures? Deacons and aged women are not to drink too much wine, bishops none at all.

    1 Tim. 3

    [regarding bishops] Not given to wine...

    [regarding deacons] Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine,

    Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine
     
    #98 InTheLight, Aug 19, 2013
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  19. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    You said you'd go verse by verse. Romans 14, 15 and 1 Cor. 8 are the relevant chapters. I'm not writing a commentary, we're simply discussing what is being said.

    I didn't say a weaker brother was one who is weak in will, and neither did Paul. He said weak in the faith, and that is not the same as ignorance.

    Before we go on, that needs to be understood. That doesn't mean one who is ignorant or undisciplined or lacking self-control.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Ohhh wow .... you really want to go on with this absurd conversation? :laugh:

    .... Continue ROFL!
     
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