'Modern' Apostels & Prophets

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SpiritualMadMan, Jun 16, 2004.

  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan
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    On the Music Thread I said
    Dr. Bob mentioned it might be 'interesting' to start a thread.

    Let me say that I know this is a Baptist Board and by and large most of the posters feel the the Manifestations of the Holy Spirits Presence have ceased...

    However there *is* a 'phenomena' amongst Charismatics and Pentecostals where both 'Prophets' and 'Apostles' are considered real and viable.

    As you can see in my quote I, as a pentecostal, have trouble with a lot of what I am seeing...

    The term Apostle is used in so many ways it automatically causes problems.

    Some denoms even call their High Level leaders Apostles..

    Where is my head at...

    Earlier I said that I did not believe *TRUE* Apostle exist today...

    That is not entirely correct.

    I have a lot of 'qualifications' to the Office of Apostle.

    But, for an Apostle to be of the NT kind they would have to not only see Jesus but walk with Him, physically.

    I believe that both Apostles and Prophets exist today... (With Qualifications)

    But, they are not who most think they are... And, they are few and far between...

    And, because of the fraudulent ones the real ones are almost never listened to.

    If we were to accept the premise that Apostle and Prophets 'could' exist in todays church then we would need to delineate just what they would be...

    Even today I firmly believe that an Apostle needs to be someone who has seen Jesus. Even if it is only a Pauline vision.

    I have known a few people who have claimed to have had a vision of Jesus. They were changed forever.

    Not one of them capitalized on the experience. There was a noted awe in their voices that thier Lord would even consider such of them. Humbled.

    I haven't seen the dead raised, yet. But, I have seen cripples walk again... Again, the person prayng never claimed Apostolic calling or Power. They were just humble men who were available for use as God's Instrument.

    Quite a contrast from today's crop.


    The Prophetic is an area where the total lack of accountability should, if nothing else, raise warning flags of hurricane proportions.

    It is far too easy to claim to be a Prophet.

    And, I, as one who has very reluctantly prophesied, honestly don't understand the total lack of apparent concern for 'getting it wrong'.

    To the best of my knowledge the very few things I spoke in God's Name have remained 100% accurate to this date many years later.

    True prophets very seldom get a reward, and are very seldom listened to, either.

    If a Prophet has to be able to turn it on and off like a light switch them I am decidedly not a Prophet. [​IMG]

    First of all... I run from it because, even though always right when I act as a Prophet... And, I **always** get in trouble for doing so.

    Apostles and Prophets are human and will make mistakes...

    But, NEVER when actually operating in the gift of their calling...

    Like that old motto... The Quality goes in before the Name goes on...

    I guess I should go get my Crash Crew Turn-Out Gear on so I can stand the fire about to come my way?
     
  2. SpiritualMadMan

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    I should add that you can probably see the frustration in my post with what I have to deal with in my own circles?

    In this area it is almost easier to 'kiss off' the Apostolic and Prophetic and become a non-Pentecostal because of the grievous abuses going on.

    So, there is a part of me that thinks in terms of completely dis-allowing for the possibility because of the current crop of 'practitioners'.

    And, another part of me who has been in the midst of (and took part in) some really neat and great out pourings where both Apostolic Power and the Prophetic was in evidence...

    Where the end results, accountability, goals, and ministry were so different from today's crop.

    It honestly makes me sick at heart.
     
  3. DHK

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    The Mormon Church has Apostles.
     
  4. ChurchBoy

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    I've been wanting to ask this question for a long time. Isn't one of the defining characteristics of an OT prophet that the words that God Gave him to speak became Scripture? If this is true, wouldn't that mean that no one today could be a prophet because the cannon of Scripture is closed.

    I had an intersting experience several years ago. God placed on my heart to start a small group and Bible study at my work. I wasn't sure I could do it. I was praying and seeking God's guidance. A friend of mine introduced me to a woman that supposedly had a "prophetic gift". She prayed for me and specifically told me that I will go into full time ministry but that my ministry would be at work. She was quite specific in what she said about God wanting me to start a group and a Bible Study at work. Well, I started the small group and group was a success, especially the Bible Study. We had several seekers come and just listen to us. One young man would come every time for months and just listen. It was obvious that the Lord was revealing His Truth to him through us as we read and discussed Scripture.

    Is this an example of a "prophetic gift" or just a fellow believer encouraging me? She didn't reveal any new Biblical revelation or new understanding of God. This doesn't seem to be anything like what the OT prophets did.

    I have two choices here:

    1) Believe that God specifically spoke to this woman to share what she shared.

    2) Believe that her words were just coincidental.

    Right, now I'm not sure what to believe.

    I definitely would like to hear other people's views.

    A Brother in Christ,

    ChurchBoy
     
  5. Sir Joyful

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    I believe that there are supernatural healings and real prophecies to be had today. I also believe that you won't find any of those with these gifts gathering huge followings intentionally as is the case with too many self-apointed "Apostles" today. When these guys start allowing real accountability by letting people disagree with them and check scripture to ensure their words line up, will they be anything other than dangerous phonies.

    ChurchBoy, I definitely think that woman gave you a prophesy. Only by asking others she's prophesied to will you find out if it is her gift or a one time revelation.

    God Bless
    Doug
     
  6. Marcia

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    Chuchboy, prophecy means speaking out God's word. That kind of gift is still here today, but it does include giving the future. Those prophecies are in the OT and were written for a final time in the NT.

    You said that God had already placed on your heart to start this Bible study, so it is nothing new that this woman was telling you. I think that it would have happened anyway. What this woman said encouraged you but I do not think she prophesied. It could be that the Lord used her to encourage you, however.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Lets let the Bible answer the question - not mere human speculation.

    How does God Himself define the mechanism of prophecy?

    So - that ends the idea of mere "forth-telling".

    (Unless you are forth-telling a dream or vision given directly by God -- speaking infallibly "From God" and not a matter of one's own interpretation. Not possibly without a supernatural message via dream or vision as it turns out.).

    The other issue is whether prophets are always writing scripture in either OT or NT.

    Nathan is a prophet that did not write scripture. Saul himself prophesied and in the NT Philips daughters are listed as prophets. In 1Cor 14 we see many in the church are prophets - none write scripture.

    The gift did not require that you write scripture in either OT or NT.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Bob,

    What about Agabus? There is no record that he had a dream or vision, is there? Yet, he is called a Prophet.

    We won't even talk about Philips Daughters. [​IMG]

    Acts 11:27-28 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. {28}And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

    Acts 21:8-11 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. {9}And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. {10}And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus. {11}And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

    Also, there is no record that they wrote scripture themselves...


    This highlights some of the problems with the topic of Prophets...

    We have God's revealed will and process of the Prophetic in the OT. Which was rather stark and legalisitc.

    Then Grace enters the picture and we see records that seem to indicate a 'minor' shift in operation and administration.

    Yet, we don't have nearly as much detail about that administration and operation as I would like...

    It's clear that the effects of Grace and the Fullfillment of Joel 25 have made a shift...

    However minor... And, that this 'shift' is being exploited by the unscrupulous.

    It is interesting that most, if not all, of those exploiting the 'Prophetic' use that very same passage to squash nay-sayers of 'thier gift and calling'. As well as 'Touch not the Lord's Anointed'. [​IMG]

    Also, someone mentioned a 'one-time' revelation...

    This also highlights another Charismatic/Pentecostal 'problem'...

    If we allow that the 9 Pentecostal 'Gifts' still exist...

    The problem remains in telling them apart because they over lap to a certain extent.

    Example:
    If I am given a Word of Knowledge about a certain event or person...

    Is that really that much different than a Word of Prophecy that forth-tells the same information?

    And, I would say that just because a person has a few occurances of one Word or another does not make them an Official of the Office...

    Which is another common mistake amongst my 'brethren'...

    A major reason for Joel 25 was so all of God's People could be intimate and talk face to face with Him by way of the Spirit...

    But, we like the tangible and making points amongst ourselves too much for that...

    Just once I would like to be among my Pentecostal brethren and just be myself, Spiritually...

    But, the depth of deceit to one another can be very impenetrable...

    I guess that's why, with a few notable exceptions, I like visting this board...
     
  9. music4Him

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    Nathan is a prophet that did not write scripture. Saul himself prophesied and in the NT Philips daughters are listed as prophets. In 1Cor 14 we see many in the church are prophets - none write scripture.

    The gift did not require that you write scripture in either OT or NT.

    [​IMG] Amen Bob!
    And like the scripture you quoted...
    2Pet 3:20-21 NO prophecy is a matter of one man's interpretation, for NO prophecy was EVER made by an act of HUMAN will but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke FROM GOD.
    Would it be that some people who prophesy are sensitive to the Holy Spirit?
     
  10. SpiritualMadMan

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    Amen!

    However, if it were not possible for a person who is 'spiritually' sensitive to be drawn away or off course the injunction to Test the Spirits to see if they are of God or not would not have been written...

    Most emotional people (read that as Pentecostal [​IMG] ) are sensitive to the Spiritual Realm...

    The delineation between realms is not as hard and fast (at times) for us as those that tend towards the non-Charismatic disciplines...

    Failure to teach the Berean Attitude and a lack of willingness to 'Try the Spirits' against the written Word is a serious problem amongst Pentecostals.

    For those that are not 'sensitive' or at least 'open' to the concept it is easy to read out or into Scripture things that prohibit Spiritual Gifts...

    However, I will submit, that 'we' Penetcostals *need* 'you' non-Pentecostals to help keep our feet on the ground, as it were. Not to prohibit us...

    And, 'you' non-Pentecostals could probably use a little Spiritual Discernment and Fire of God from time to time too. :D

    When we place a 'Prophet' or 'Apostle' on a pedestal and 'pretend' they are inerrant we do a great dis-service to the Body of Christ and them...
     
  11. MTA

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    I've included an good definition of prophecy from Vines Dictionary that may prove beneficial to the discussion:
    The proof of prophesy has always been in the fulfillment of it. . .
    Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

    We know that the prophesies concerning particular events and especially pertaining to Christ were true, because we have the record of their fulfillment. However, divine prophesy was never a result of making lucky guesses or stating what is likely or obviously going to happen because of information that led the prophet to that conclusion.

    The question is whether God is actively revealing His will through modern-day prophets and "new" prophecies for today. Prophecy is prevalent today, but not in the sense of foretelling future events through Divine inspiration. To prophesy today is simply to "explain Scripture." There are no new prophecies to be revealed outside of the Holy Scriptures. God's work is complete and His will for the human family is revealed through His Word.

    The second part of the question deals with apostles. This is largely a question of how the word "apostle" is used and to whom it is referring. According to Thayer, an apostle is:
    Specifically, there are no apostles living today that meet the definition for apostleship that Peter gave in Acts 1:21-22. There are none living that have walked with Jesus during His earthly ministry or been witnesses of His resurrection. There may be many that wear the title, but it is a title that must be associated with the other definitions of the name.

    Anyone who wears the title, believing they are numbered with the original apostles, (including Matthias and Paul), are terribly misguided.
     
  12. Link

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    MTA,
    Paul didn't fit the requiremetns laid out for replacing Judas, but he was an apostle. Clearly the category 'apostle' is wider than the criteria laid out in Acts 1. Those are criteria for replacing Judas. Not all apostles have to meet up to them.

    Marcia
    I believe New Testament prophecy is basically the same thing the Old Testaments were doing. I base this on the fact that the same Greek word for 'prophesy' are used to refer to what both the New and Old Testament prophets did. The Bible describes the prophecies of men in the Old Testament as holy men of old 'spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.' That's a good rule-of-thumb understanding of prophesying--speaking as moved by the Holy Ghost.

    The Bible is full of exampels to show that prophecy can be predicting the future. There is no reason in scripture to indicate that predictive prophecy ceased.
     
  13. MTA

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    Link wrote:
    Paul did meet the criteria. He was a witness to Christ's resurrection and in fact, was the only Apostle to see Christ after He had ascended. Paul was specifically called to be an apostle by Jesus Christ. (see 1 Timothy 1:1)

    The term "apostle" can be applied to others, but not in the same sense of the word as it it used for the twelve and Paul.
     
  14. SpiritualMadMan

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    Good Post MTA... At least I thought so...

    Here's a scripture that seems aligned with your views?
    The phrase, "Prophecy of the Scripture" lends a lot of credence that a teacher of the Scripture can be 'Prophetic'.

    The phrase "moved by the Holy Ghost" seems to indicate that God did not always use Prophets by a face to face inspiration.
     
  15. Marcia

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    I think we should evaluate NT prophecy on how it's used in the NT and with the realization that the canon of scripture is closed. There is no more extra-biblical prophecy today or the canon would not be closed - our Bible would not be complete.

    Yes, the holy men of old (OT prophets) "spake" (past tense). They spoke -- it's over and what God wants us to have is in scritpure. Also, just looking at some of what OT prophets spoke, it was not always foretelling. Sometimes it was God's pronouncement of judgement. But it's still in the past.
     
  16. BobRyan

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    God said "IF there IS a prophet among you I WILL speak to them in dream or vision".

    Your argument with Agabus is "maybe not".

    However the text does not say "God did not speak to Agabus" or that Agabus did not have a dream or vision. It is silent on that point and not an "exhaustive account". Your argument would only stand if the record claimed to be "exhaustive" and it does not.

    Further - Agabus did not "merely forth-tell" he "predicted the future". This is not what many claim for prophecy today.

    Indeed we will. This makes the case - because none of them are recorded as "saying anything" - or "eating anything" or "breathing". The point remains - this is not an exhaustive account.

    God's Word remains true as for what HE does when one is a prophet. Using a silent section of a summary statement as if that "disproves" God's declarative - is not a valid use of the text.

    Acts 11:27-28 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch. {28}And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

    Again - this is a message given to him directly by God - and he CAME to to Antioch to give that message.

    So God is still correct when He says "If there IS a prophet among you I WILL speak to him by dream or vision".

    True. They were true prophets (and there is only one gift of prophecy) but they did not write scripture - as is the case with numerous prophets in the OT.

    Indeed. This is the "two gospel" heresy that Paul addressed in Galations 1:6-11. The Jews taught this - and Paul condemned it.

    However you are using a change in worship service to get "another gift of prophecy" - but such is not the case. NT authors like Peter refers to the Prophets of the OT - and also to the prophets of the NT. There is no "difference".

    You are looking for a "difference" in the gift based on the void of what scripture has never said to support such an idea.

    Nothing is said in all of scripture about a "change in the administration of prophecy" after the cross.

    It is not clear that Joel 2 makes any change at all in prophecy. In fact we have the opposite. The Joel 2 text uses prophecy in the context of the OT - Peter applies that SAME OT term to NT post-cross manifestation of the same and even declares the NT event to fulfill that OT declaration which relied on the OT context for prophecy.

    Your point ends.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. music4Him

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    Marcia,
    Ok then if you want to believe that. I not sure that everything that prophets said was suppost to be cannonized? If so were is all the stuff that Jonah wrote? Because he was a prophet before the big fish came along in fact reading the book of Jonah you would come to the conclusion the he was prophesing before then.
    We also have Deborah the prophetess she was prophesing to people way before she joined the ranks with Barak. Then Philips 4 daughters...theres no book written with their prophesies. But could it have been written to show people that prophecy was always here as is the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. The purpose of prophecy is to edify. Think how edified the people of Niniveh was when they were spared, because they listened to Jonah. ;)

    Now with that said in this day and time it wouldn't take a rocket scientist look around at the evidence and tell us we are headed for trouble.

    Music4Him [​IMG]
     
  18. Link

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  19. SpiritualMadMan

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    Consider
    Bob,
    You said
    And, so by stating inferring that I am purpetrating heresy...

    Yet, Paul in First Corinthians clearly teaches that there can be *ONE* Lord but a plurality of both operations and administrations...

    Galatians 1:6-11
    The Other Gospel is teaching Another Jesus...

    This is stated by the opening paragraph in Pauls letter...
    John elaborates this theme
    So, I greatly deprecate your inferrence that I am a heretic or teaching heresy...

    Not once have you or anyone else on this board **EVER** heard me deny Jesus Christ Come in the Flesh, Died on the Cross for **MY** Sins, Rose on the Third Day and is Seated at the Right Hand of the Father...

    I have made HIM LORD, which to me means absolute ruling authority in my life...

    It means that if *YOU* confess Jesus as Lord and witness that you believe in your Heart that God raised Him from the dead I **HAVE** to call you 'Brother'...

    No matter how much we disagree or it pains me...
     
  20. BobRyan

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    The different Administrations and operations of 1Cor 12 refer to the "different" spiritual gifts... ie tongues vs teaching for example IT is not a statement about "two kinds of apostles" or "two kinds of prophecy" or "two kinds of teachers" or "many kinds of pastors" in terms of the gifts of the Spirit having many flavors of one gift. NOR does it contrast OT vs NT manifestations of spiritual gifts.

    I think this is just wishful thinking on your part to use 1Cor 12 in that way.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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