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'Modern' Apostels & Prophets

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by SpiritualMadMan, Jun 16, 2004.

  1. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I did not say prophecy does not exist today. I said that prophecy in the sense of foretelling does not exist. If you look at the OT prophets, much of what they said had nothing to do with foretelling events at all -- they were urging God's people to turn away from idol worship and other sin. God was dealing with Israel and did give the prophets words about the future if Israel did not obey. Also, prophecies of the Messiah were given.

    What would prophecy in the sense of foretelling future events for the church outside of the Bible be today? Well, the ones I know of are several who have foretold events that did not happen, yet their followers still call these men/women prophets of God. They have been proven false prophets according to scripture.

    It seems that if the Bible is sufficient so that the "man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3.16-17) and Revelation says not to add or take away from God's words, then there are no more words to be added as scripture.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Cor 12 continues to be a valid scripture for today - we can believe it - we can accept it. Spiritual gifts are to continue.

    Prophecy remains today as it was in the OT and in the NT -- it is the same gift. And there is only "one" mentioned for prophecy.

    Nothing is said in all of scripture about "various kinds of gift of prophecy".

    The point is made repeatedly in the NT - that the scriptures that the NT saints were using - was what we today call - the OT.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Bob said -- In Acts 17:11 the people "test" the words of Paul to "see IF those things are so" - testing them BY the Scriptures.

    They did NOT say "Hey there are still prophets around so we certainly CAN't use the Word of God as the final authority to turn to or study - so we will just believe whatever anybody says".

    The argument speculated at the top and quoted by Marcia was never used by the saints of OT or NT while ALL agree that prophets existed.


    We all agree there. But the point remains - they did not claim "not to know how to test" doctrine by the final authority of scripture (even though that scripture was JUST the OT). They never claimed to be in confusion while waiting for spiritual gifts to cease.

    They never said "hey prophets still prophesy so we have no final authority to test doctrine". --

    Yet people will make these reasons up as a defense of why we wouldn't want God's gifts to the church to continue today.

    I am simply pointing out that that argument could never have worked in all of time - not even in the NT and OT when prophets were prophesying by everyone's measure.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree that the content of the message that God is "allowed" to give in prophecy - is unlimited. It is not limited to just foretelling the future.

    But I find no support for claiming that when God gives revelation - it CAN not be in the form of telling us about future events.

    In fact - I find quite the opposite in scripture.

    If you believe that 2Tim 3 vs 17 is the last verse of scripture ever written - (and you could prove it) you might have at least "some" support for that thought.

    But 2Timothy 3 is not the last chapter to be written in the NT.

    Furthermore - 2Tim 3 is speaking to Timothy about his childhood and a time when the OT text was his only text book. Paul is (horror of horrors) saying that the OT was "sufficient" as taught to Timothy while he was a child - before any NT text had been written.

    Your own point seals the deal.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    2 Timothy 3 is not the last verse or book to be written -- you are right. But the truth applies to whatever scripture we have - it was not written just for Timothy but for the church or it would have remained a private letter. Therefore, we can still apply what it says to NT scripture, insofar as it being God-breathed and sufficient for the believer.

    Either one believes the canon of scripture is closed or it is not. If it is closed, then on what basis can one accept additonal words for the church? I do not believe there is any such basis. I wholeheartedly believe the Bible is complete and there is no further revelation for the church in terms of additonal future forecasting or additional scriptures.

    I also believe that these views on prophecy are views that believers can disagree but should not divide over.
     
  6. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Bob,

    Is the 'Gift of Prophecy' spread abroad in the Congregation as the Spirit wills the same thing as the 'Office of a Prophet'...

    Where I am coming from is this...

    If they are one and the same then anyone and everyone could be a Prophet and the current insanity we see is a potential valid expression of the office of the Prophet...

    But, if the 'Office of a Prophet' (meaning the reside, walk, and live there?) is different than the 'Gift of Prophecy'...

    Then it would be possible to be 'Prophetic' as the Spirit gives Utterance (or, wills) without being a 'Prophet' (in the office of a Prophet).

    Now it is possible that the experiential knowledge is causing confusion because when the Gifts of 'Word of Knowledge' and 'Word of Wisdom' occur together (as they often do) they could appear as Prophecy...

    Also, a potential problem occurs with our definition of Prophecy...

    To some any speaking of God's Word is Prophecy whether teaching, preaching, or evangelism.

    To others the Prophetic Office is all the above marked with 'Fore-Telling' and Apostolic Power (ie., undeniable miracles)...

    In my mind based on my Pentecostal upbringing and exegesis based thereon...

    The Gift of Prophecy is different from the Office of a Prophet...

    The former being common in the NT Church... The latter few and far between.

    The Gift of Prophecy, in my understanding, is anytime the Spirit brings to your remembrance things you need to speak forth...

    This would include that sudden inspiration while Teaching, Preaching, or Evangelising. And, more rarely, public pronounciations during public services in amenable venues (mostly)...

    I am not sure whether a genuine God-Directed rebuke would be 'manifest' through a 'Gift or Prophecy'...

    In my understanding that would be more from the 'Office of a Prophet'...

    Though of the few times I have operated in Prophecy there have been times I have been literally turned on my heel and have delievered a rebuke to men 'senior' to me in the Lord which were 100% accurate, true, and (unfortunately) came to pass... (These were bi-conditional warnings of acts those senior to me had not revealed to anyone which were to have negative consequences on the Body of Christ.)

    Other times there have been 'Words of Encouragement' spoken to the whole body from my position in the (amenable) congregation during a Spirit orchestrated 'pause'.

    But, I do not call myself or consider myself properly a 'Prophet'... But, rather someone who has operated in the Gifts of the Spirit...

    If I am... I am decidedly a *very* reluctant one. [​IMG]

    And, I will be the first to admit I don't fully understand this topic. Nor, do I find it easy to put into words all that God has done in, through, and around me.

    To say the least it has been interesting...

    Take it slow Bob... Take time to develope it, please. I only have a GED!

    And, while I studied for the ministry it was for a Pentecostal Denom. *after* many years in a Baptist Environment... And, even more years on my own with nothing but a Bible.

    So, the possibility exists I have a 'right' understand and just don't know how to express it.
     
  7. MTA

    MTA New Member

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    I fail to understand why it is seemingly so difficult to understand Gal. 1:1???? Unless a person believes the Word of God was not divinely inspired how can anyone deny that Paul received his appointment by Jesus Christ himself?

    I have not denied that Paul was not with Christ's other followers from the baptism of John, but that fact is inconsequential to his appointment as an apostle. Would anyone deny Paul's apostleship was of the same divine authority as the others Christ called?

    Paul is the only person outside the original twelve to claim his apostleship was of divine appointment and the biblical account backs that up. The same cannot be said of any other person where the more generic label of "apostle" has been applied.

    Peter's instruction was in fulfillment of prophecy and we have already covered that. However, this was also prior to Saul's conversion and appointment by Christ to be an Apostle to the Gentiles.
     
  8. Link

    Link New Member

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  9. MTA

    MTA New Member

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    Written testimony is not required from the twelve Apostles. We have inspired scripture to qualify the nature of their appointment by our Lord as Apostles:

    Luk 6:13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles;
    Luk 6:14 Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew,
    Luk 6:15 Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes,
    Luk 6:16 And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.


    The point of discussion is whether the word apostle is used synonomously between the twelve appointed by Christ, Paul (also appointed by Christ), and others who were also called apostles afterwards. What Paul and the twelve share in common is a divine appointment by Christ. Scripture verifies that. We do not see that in the case of the others and while we can speculate from now until the Lord comes again, it would not change what the Bible says. I really do not know what additional "conclusive" evidence you might need.

    In two statements you say
    I agree, we don't know what their testimonies of Barnabas and the other men were. However, how do you know that Paul outlabored the other Apostles? What body of evidence are you referring to to make that statement? I assume you are referring to the Bible and specifically:

    1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
    1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


    Hmmmmmmmm . . . now why would you believe what Paul wrote of himself, when you have nothing written about the other Apostles? It seems you believe portions of Scripture without requiring additional irrefutable documentation outside the inspired Word. Why don't you believe the rest?
     
  10. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    :D Sometimes I think we are so busy making our points that we assume that we are being perfectly clear,,,

    When if fact we aren't...

    Sometimes it might pay to go back and re-affirm one's original definition...

    Lest we find ourselves fighting with someone who actually agrees with us! [​IMG]

    Also, even though all of us profess to be Christians and somewhat scholarly...

    We all come from different backgrounds and are dealing with different "Spiritual Jargon". Which may not mean the same thing 'we' th ink it does.

    Even among my own A/G types I find myself having to be painstakingly redundant and plain...

    WE get so inculcated (my latest new word) by a specific wording that as soon as someone states something differently red flags go up...

    Even if they believe exactly the same as 'we' do...

    Something to think about...
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Were they one and the same in the OT? COULD you be a prophet (by office) without the gift of prophecy? No.

    However as you point out - Saul in the OT prophesied but did not have the "office" of prophet. Elisha and Elijah held "the office" though Elijah never wrote a single book of the Bible. They both were prophets and they both had the gift of prophecy.

    Having said all that - there was stil no "mass confusion reigning in the OT because God was giving the gift of prophecy".

    Hopefull we can agree on that point.

    However even at that - 1Cor 12 shows clearly that ALL are not given the gift of prophecy.

    Neither do ALL speak in tongues.

    I tend to stick with the definition God gives in Numbers 12 - those to whom He speaks "By vision or dream" in direct divine revelation - .. and nothing else.

    Simply having an inspired speaker - is not it.

    In the modern form of "anything can be called prophecy" that you identify above - the prophet is "wrong because it was his lunch speaking in that thoughtful moment not God" - and this happens a lot.

    The way we "KNOW" if someone is a prophet - is that we test them and their doctrines claimed to be from God -- "sola scriptura"

    If one ever (or has ever) claimed a message to be from God - and that message is doctrinally in eror (as tested sola scriptura) then tney are a false prophet.

    The ONLY way their message COULD have been infallibly true is if it were given by divine, direct inspiration (dream or vision).

    Notice that when Nathan is asked by David if he should build the temple - Nathan answers in correctly. But then a direct, divine communication from God "Dream or Vision" (remember) gives the correct answer.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. HisMercy

    HisMercy New Member

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    I don't think I agree with "But it's still in the past." The LORD pronounced judgements on people for turning from Him in the OT. The same judgement holds for those who turn from Him today.
     
  14. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    True enough...

    However, such Judgement is held in abeyance during this Age of Grace in the hope that the Prodigal Son will come home...

    Whether your persuasion is Calvin or Armenian Grace is still a *very* Powerful Force...
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Annanias and Saphira were killed on the spot. In Jude we are told to be instructed and warned by the example of Soddom and Gomorrah undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. The Roman empire fell into violence and homosexuality and as Lev 18 predicts about Pagan countries that do that - they were then destroyed.

    Hitler arose and for a few years slaughtered millions including Jews - and then God visited him in judgment.

    Saddam slaughters 300,000 of his own people and then is forced to hide in a hole in the ground.

    It is not correct to say that "no judgments" come from God today.

    Recall that the judgments that fell on Israel were in the form of invading armies. The judgments that fell on the Caananites were in the form of the invading army of Israel.

    But there was only one flood in the OT - and there will be only one Lake of Fire in the NT.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Bob,

    You are correct in saying that it is incorrect to say that "no judgements" come from God today...

    But, can we agree that it sure seems like the majority of (apparently) deserved judgements do seem to be held in abeyance? [​IMG]

    I have seen only one case of 'quick judgement'... I believe it was a case were the person knew they were wrong... Knew it would/could adversely affect what God was doing in an area... They recieved ample warning and a chance to cease and desist... And, persisted in their stubborness...

    Granted, this is *very* anecdotal... [​IMG]

    I am not sure what to make of the apparent instant judgement of Ananias while Saphira appears to have been given an oppurtunity to repent?

    Unless it (possibly) was because Ananias was a man or in leadership?
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I agree that with the fall of Adam - God did not visit quick judgments. HE waited 1500 years before destroying the earth. HE waited many centuries before destroying the Caananites and many more before dealing with the Jews and certainly we see Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome continuing century after century before their days were up.

    One interesting principle in scripture is that when the symbol of God's presence is introduced into a context of rebellion - judgment results.

    In the time of the flood - the ark of Noah was that symbol. When it was finished - judgment fell.

    The ark of the covenant was taken by the Philistines - and then ... judgment fell.

    Christ came to Israel and they rejected Him - and judgment fell.

    Something to think about.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Good Stuff Bob!

    I have to wonder what signs and images we are missing today? (That precursor the limit of God's Patience with the US, for example.)
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Well the Joel 2 promise was fulfilled at Pentecost according to Peter in Acts 2... However if you read the details of Joel 2 for the last days - it is very possible that it has an even more profound event in view - still in our future.

    Consider that the Rev 16 - 7 last plagues prior to the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 - represents "judgment" that must have followed a specific manifestation or symbol of God's presence.

    Consider also that in Rev 14 you have a sequence in 3 angels messages - showing the symbol of God presence in the form of an announcement message warning about future judgment (not unlike Noah) and then you see fire and brimstone in that chapter.

    Some believe that the 3 angels of Rev 14 are pointing to a specific "event" at the end of time - and when you combine this with the Loud message of Rev 18:1-4 (that is identical to one of the messages of Rev 14) - it "could be" that this is the Joel 2 "ultimate event" and that following that end of time event - the plagues are poured out and then Christ appears as in Rev 19.

    Some food for thought.

    Bob
     
  20. atestring

    atestring New Member

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    I just found this thread and don't know if this has been said already but Ephesians says that God has placed in the Church Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist ,Pastors and Teachers until we all come into the unity of the Faith. So until we come into the unity of the Faith all 5 offices are needed. I believe that we will come into the Untiy of the faith when Jesus comes. We certainly are not walking in the unity of the faith The Baptist board is living proff of that.
     
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