modern evangelism vs. WOTM

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by matthewc, Jul 13, 2006.

  1. matthewc

    matthewc
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    WOTM = Way Of The Master(wayofthemaster.com)

    I've been thinking about this issue quite frequently. I'm a newer Christian, even though I was brought up in a baptist church up until age 14-15. I was involved willfully in sin up until age 27(6 months ago). I had finally seen where my sins all led and life without God is/was hopeless! I got back in church, I got saved.

    I am in a soul winning class that teaches modern evangelism. False conversions is a concern of mine because it is alot harder to talk to someone who thinks they are saved , but is not.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm leaning towards thinking that , obviously both methods do work, most of us were saved by modern methods, but I think modern evangelism produces alot of false converts(who get saved and show no change at all) because some don't grasp the concept of being true repentance and simply try God on to improve their quality of life.

    James 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

    2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Those are just a couple of the many verses that imply that there is a immediate change in desires and behaviour of a beleiver.

    This is just a small portion of stuff from wayofthemaster.com's thoughts/analagies of their method of evangelism compared to modern methods.

    80-90% of people who made decisions to Christ backslide

    Spurgeon,Edwards,Moody,Wesley,Finney,Luther,Whitfield all used a princible which is almost entirely neglected by modern methods.

    Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

    Imagine if i'd said to you "I've got some Good news for you!" Someone has just paid a 25,000.00 speeding fine on your behalf. You'd prolly react by saying "what are you talking about? , that's not good news, i don't have a 25,000.00 speeding fine". My good news is wouldn't be good news to you , it would seem foolishness, more than that it would offensive to you because I'm insinuating you've broken the law, when you don't think you have. However when if i go this way it may make more sense.

    On the way to a meeting, the law clocked you at 55 MPH through an area set aside for a blind children's convention. There were 10 clear warning signs stating that 15 MPH is the maximum speed, but you went straight through at 55 MPH. What you did was extremely dangerous! There's a 25,000.00 fine. The law was about to take it's course when someone you don't even know stepped in and paid the fine for you. You are very fortunate!

    Can you see that actually telling you what precisely you've done wrong first actually makes the good news make sense? If I don't clearly bring instruction and you understand you've broken the law, the good news seems foolishness, it will seem offensive. But once you understand you've broken the law, the good news will become good news indeed!

    If I approached a unbeliever and said "Jesus Christ died for your sins" it would be foolishness to him and offensive. Foolishness because it don't make sense. The Bible says The preaching of the cross is to them who perish foolishness. Offensive because i'm insinuating he's a sinner, which he don't think he is. As far as he's concerned, there's many that are worse than him.

    If I take the time to open up the divine law of the 10 commandments and show the sinner precisely what he's done wrong, that he has offended God by violating his law then when he comes as James says convinced of the law as a transgressor.The good news that the fine has been paid for will not be foolishness, it will not be offensive, it will be the power of God unto salvation.​

    The "Hells Best Kept Secret" video/audio is approximately 50 minutes long. I only took notes on the first 5 minutes of it due to the length of this post :) Thanks in advance for any thoughts/insight
     
    #1 matthewc, Jul 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2006
  2. gekko

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    first of all. dont mention willful sin around these people because that is what the whole thread would be about eventually.
    ---

    off that. secondly
    the stony ground hearers spring up immediately.

    the good ground hearers grow slowly because they need to take root before anything else is showing.
    ---

    just a couple things i noticed. im enrolled in the SOBE. (school of biblical evangelism - biblicalevangelism.com)

    one thing we MUST remember is that we cannot, as christians, label people as saved or unsaved. that is God's job.
    we must, however, tell people How to be saved. and that is where the questions/heat comes from is different opinions on what the bible says on "how to be saved"

    some say its just a profession of faith according to romans 10.
    some say its just believing according to ephesians 2.
    some say its repent and believe according to Jesus' ministry.

    personally i say its all of the above. repent, believe - those are the legs to your profession of faith. the evidence will eventually show itself.

    i dont believe we should puposely be looking to see if someone is producing fruits. that'd be a scavenger hunt for many.

    so... like wotm says... who do you know who isnt saved?
    and i go from there.
    ---

    kinda make sense?
     
  3. genesis12

    genesis12
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    You had me concerned there for a minute, Matthew, with this "method" business. But you pulled it together with your "approach" model. Yeah, instead of dumping on anyone, give them some background to chew on.
     
  4. J. Jump

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    This is a bit of an oxymoron, because you are speaking of spreading the good news of the death and shed blood of Christ. That doesn't save someone's soul, but their spirit.

    So you are really ina spiring winning class, and yes semantics in this area is CRITICAL!

    Someone's soul can not be won or lost until they are made alive spiritually (eternally saved).

    There is no such thing. You either believe or you don't.

    Not true. James is speaking of the salvation of the soul, and II Corinthians is talking about a change in identity, not a change in moral practice.

    You are combining the salvation of the spirit and the salvation of the soul into one message and you are going to run into quite a few problems. One of the most serious is if you combine these two messages eternal security is a farce.

    Now just a couple of days ago, or maybe a week ago now you said this parable didn't have anything to do with eternal salvation. Are you changing your mind?
     
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan
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    I prefer to go straight to the Bible for my message--as I'm sure everyone will agree!

    The Bible tells me in Mark 16:1-5 to give the Gospel to everyone. The Gospel is defined very clearly in 1 Cor. 15:1-8, and there is no mention of the law there, though the atoning death of Christ and His resurrection are prominent. So, conviction of sin is vital for the salvation of the soul. How does that come? Very clearly, it only comes through the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:7-11). So in my view, being filled and moved by the Holy Spirit in your evangelism is far more important than teaching the law of the Jews.

    I do find here in Japan that I often have to define the true God as compared to the false gods of Shinto and Buddhism. He is the God of creation, and that concept is absent in those religions. But that is a different subject.

    Concerning the fact that some who profess faith in Christ do not stay the course, it always puzzles me that people find a problem with that, since Jesus so clearly taught in various parables that it would happen. My job is simply to keep giving the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit, not worry about the results. If I worried about the results I'd go nuts over here in this "gospel resistant" country!

    Now, as soon as someone shows me the OT law in the Great Commission or in a Biblical statement of the Gospel, then I'll believe it is necessary to use it to win Japanese to Christ. Until then....:type:
     
  6. gekko

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    WOTM program does not say that the law is part of the gospel. many get that confused.

    J.Jump. i never said that the parable had anything to do with eternal salvation. and i never said it didn't. so you have no basis there.

    there are three kinds of people.

    the unsaved. the people who think they're saved. and the saved.

    a false conversion is one who thinks they are saved.

    you are correct in saying that you are either saved or not.
    a false conversion is unsaved.

    go ahead and read into what im saying. you know you want to. :)
     
  7. gekko

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    oh. almost forgot.

    you still have no proof and havn't finished your studies on the difference between the salvation of the soul and the spirit.

    so i suggest you get all the answers before displaying that belief on here.

    you've said yourself the bible doesnt really speak about it. am i correct?
     
  8. John of Japan

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    My point was not that the WOTM program says the law is part of the Gospel, my point was that I am commanded to proclaim the Gospel, and the law is not part of the Gospel.

    About all I know of the program is what I've seen here on the BB and going to the website a couple of times. My impression has been that WOTM advocates seem to say that theirs is the best way and all other methods of personal evangelism are inefficient or something.

    For my own part, I thank God for anyone who proclaims the Gospel, since so few are doing so! If someone is inspired to begin witnessing through the program, praise God, I say! :type:
     
  9. Rippon

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    I think a good summation of the Gospel is found in Romans 3:21-26 .

    But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known , to which the Law and the Prophets testify . This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe . There is no difference between Jew and Gentile , for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God , and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus . God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement , through the shedding of his blood -- to be received by faith . He did this to demonstrate his justice , because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished -- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time , so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus . ( TNIV )

    I think that propitiation should have been used in verse 25 though . In the Greek ( which I do not know ) the word is hilasterion .

    In verse 24 " that came by " means set forth or piblicly displayed -- proetheto .
     
  10. tinytim

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    I use it JoJ. Really, it is not so much diff. from the Roman's Road...
    It is just a simpler way to convince the person they are a sinner. And to do that, they must realize they broke the law of God, and that they are on their way to Hell. So in a sense, without the law, you cannot have grace.

    Once a person admits they are guilty of Sin, then it shows them the penalty...Hell. Then it shows them that God loves them so much that he paid that penalty for them, and they need to receive it.

    I actually use the WOTM to start, and then switch to the Roman's Road.
    It has worked wonderful... especially for teens.
     
  11. John of Japan

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    Amen, Brother Tim. Sounds good. Keep on keeping on!:thumbs:
     
  12. Brian30755

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    Exactly. Go to any Christian website or look at any tract that presents the plan of Salvation, and you'll see Romans 3:23--"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". Everyone's a sinner. All The Way of the Master "method" does is help someone understand "why" they are a sinner, and why they are in need of a Savior. It just sort of "paves the way" and helps many people understand the Gospel better.
     
  13. gekko

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    one thing though.

    i dont think that we should be convincing or telling people that they have sinned.

    but rather that all of us have done nothing but sin.

    just like Israel in the wilderness... we need to go to Mount Sinai before we go to Mount Zion.
     
  14. Brian30755

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    That's why I like the WOTM. You don't tell them they've sinned, you ask them if they have. :)
     
  15. John of Japan

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    Hmm. That's what I do. I often tell about my own sins, in particular how I stole things when I was a kid, then ask them if they are a sinner, too. The Japanese are very sensitive folk, so the directness of us Americans often turns them off and/or intimidates them. So I try to be gentle. If figure if the Holy Spirit is at work, they will be willing to admit they are sinners. If He is not at work, forget it--they are not getting saved no matter how many prayers they say! :praying:
     
  16. ituttut

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  17. J. Jump

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    No you are not correct. The Bible is VERY CLEAR on the subject!

    Most of Christendom tries to combine the two messages and that's why they struggle with Paul and James. And they basically end up tearing up both messages in forcing them together.
     
  18. gekko

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    i dont see what's wrong with combining the two messages though. they do have their similarities and they have their differences.

    i dont believe works have anything to do with salvation. faith and belief are required for salvation (i also believe repentance as well but thats another thread) - but the works are a legitimate fruit of that salvation.

    what's the bible say... that faith comes first - before works.

    faith without works is a dead faith. yet its still faith. but seems more artificial without the backbone of the works to help it out.

    its like a catch 22 in a way. no?

    a swimming pool without water is still a swimming pool. but its gonna hurt trying to swim in that swimming pool without the water.
    ---

    can we at least all agree on this one?
     
  19. J. Jump

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    You have some really nice analogies, and that's why I have such a hard time understanding how you don't get this.

    The swimming pool without the water is a great analogy.

    The swimming pool is salvation by grace through faith. If you never add water to the pool it is still a swimming pool, it's just not realizing it's purpose. It's purpose is to have water so that it can be used properly.

    When we are eternally saved we are saved for a purpose. We are saved so that God can live out the manifested life of Jesus Christ His Son through our bodies via the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    No obvioualy a swimming pool can not refuse water, because it is a static object. Christians however can refuse to give up control of their life in on earth and therefore the life of Jesus can not be lived out in their bodies, because they are controling their body instead of the Holy Spirit.

    The swimming pool structure is eternal salvation that can never be revoked. Regardless of whether the water is ever added or not. Regardless if the swimming pool decides it wants to be a feed trough it is still a swimming pool.

    However when the water is added (which is the saving of the soul) the swimming pool is fulfilling its purpose. And just like a swimming pool can have the water removed or it can go stale so it is with the saving of the soul. You can accept this reality and then at some point walk away from it or stop believing in it.

    Great analogy!
     
  20. gekko

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    yah. i agree with you on your points J.Jump...

    but this is what baffles me: a swimming pool is still a swimming pool without the water. even if throughout the whole life of the swimming pool without water. its still a swimming pool.

    so at the end. when someone dies without water in their swimming pool. what happens?

    their spirit goes to be with the Lord. what happens to the soul? if the process of "salvation of the soul" has not happened?

    do they just lose a few rewards and are not allowed in the 1000 years reign?

    if that is true. please correct me if im incorrect.
    if that is true. then christianity seems like an easy way to dodge the lake of fire. cause even if you're saved - and you dont have evidence of faith then you still get to be with the Lord.

    it just seems wrong... if that was the case... then the whole world would be christians... if they could dodge the lake of fire...

    i dont know...
     

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