modern versions: please help me decide

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by timothy 1769, Feb 27, 2003.

  1. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    what are the best resources, pro and con, for evaluating the modern versions? thanks. websites, books, whatever.
     
  2. Harald

    Harald
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    I just wrote an article on assessing (modern) versions of the New Testament. In my opinion they need to be evaluated or tested. The first question is against what standard? One needs to have a standard to which the versions are tested or evaluated. I believe that standard is not another English versions. It must thus be the Greek New Testament. Paul the apostle said to the Corinthians they were not wise in comparing themselvels among themselves, meaning they had the wrong standard. Christ was to be their standard. If applied to the versions issue this would mean that comparing to KJV, also a version/translation, is not wise, the standard ought to be the very words (plural) of the New Testament Scriptures of the Lord Jesus Christ. Then there is the fact that there are three types of the Greek text available today. These are the Textus Receptus type of text (Erasmus-Estienne-Beza-Elzevier-Scrivener), the Alexandrian type of text (Westcott-Hort, Nestle Aland, UBS-3) and the so called Majority Text (Hodges-Farstand, Pierpont-Robinson). Only one of these can be the best text type and the superior. As for myself I am convinced the Traditional Text, the Received Text, is the superior Greek NT text type. And I am not alone on this board with this conviction. Others on here may be pro-Alexandrian type texts or pro-MT type texts. If you are not yet knowledgeable as respects the Greek text types I would advice you take some time and search out the matter from good sources. I would recommend the writings of John William Burgon and Thomas Holland right away. Holland would be the less technical of the two and a contemporary writer. I may not subscribe to some of his assessments about the KJV Bible but on the whole he is knowledgeable and sound on these issues.

    When and if you have settled the matter about the Greek text which is to be the standard of evaluation you need to know about the two schools of translation theory, literal or formal equivalency, and dynamic equivalency or free translation. About the best writing available on the translation theory issue is a recent book by Leland Ryken, The Word of God in English. On the internet two very good articles on the same issue are available, by one Robert L Thomas. He touches upon evaluation of modern versions, and makes some assessments concerning dynamic equivalency and formal e. He is pro-formal equivalency versions, as myself too. If you are interested let me know and I can give the URL's to Thomas's articles.

    As for evaluating modern versions you could do it two ways. One would be to read ready-made evaluations written by others. Another, and perhaps a better approach, would be to do it yourself. You need not be a "scholar" or "seminary professor" etc. to do such a thing. I am just a regular young man of regular education, but through an ardent interest and some personal effort I have been able to test some versions so as to know what to think of them and how to react to them in practice. To use or not to use is the question, and quite an important one at that.

    As I do not know what you know so far about these things I may have said many things you already know, for which I would apologize. If I can be of help let me know.

    Harald
     
  3. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    thanks for the (long) reply, harald! i really appreciate the time that took to write. i plan on reading some holland soon on your recommendation.

    thanks again!
     
  4. Harald

    Harald
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    You're so welcome. Glad if I can be of help to anyone.

    Harald
     
  5. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    http://www.post1.com/home/amarillo/heresy.htm

    [ February 28, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Forever settled in heaven ]
     
  6. Pure Words

    Pure Words
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    try www.biblebelievers.com
    or www.av1611.org

    What to believe about inspiration/preservation:

    Psalms 12:6-7, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." :D
     
  7. Steve K.

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    Try Answering These From Your NIV

    By Rex L. Cobb

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    INSTRUCTIONS:

    Using the New International Version Bible, answer the following questions.

    Do not rely on your memory. As the Bible is the final authority, you must take the answer from the Bible verse (not from footnotes but from the text).


    Fill in the missing words in Matthew 5:44. "Love your enemies,__________ them that curse you, ______________ to them that hate you, and pray for them that __________ and persecute you."


    According to Matthew 17:21, what two things are required to cast out this type of demon?


    According to Matthew 18:11, why did Jesus come to earth?


    According to Matthew 27:2, what was Pilate's first name?


    In Matthew 27:35, when the wicked soldiers parted His garments, they were fulfilling the words of the prophet. Copy what the prophet said in Matthew 27:35 from the NIV.


    In Mark 3:15, Jesus gave the apostles power to cast out demons and to: ____________


    According to Mark 7:16, what does a man need to be able to hear?


    According to Luke 7:28, what was John? (teacher, prophet, carpenter, etc.). What is his title or last name?


    In Luke 9:55, what did the disciples not know?


    In Luke 9:56, what did the Son of man not come to do? According to this verse, what did He come to do?


    In Luke 22:14, how many apostles were with Jesus?


    According to Luke 23:38, in what three languages was the superscription written?


    In Luke 24:42, what did they give Jesus to eat with His fish?


    John 3:13 is a very important verse, proving the deity of Christ. According to this verse (as Jesus spoke), where is the Son of man?


    What happened each year as told in John 5:4?


    In John 7:50, what time of day did Nicodemus come to Jesus?


    In Acts 8:37, what is the one requirement for baptism?


    What did Saul ask Jesus in Acts 9:6?


    Write the name of the man mentioned in Acts 15:34.


    Study Acts 24:6-8. What would the Jew have done with Paul? What was the chief captain's name? What did the chief captain command?


    Copy Romans 16:24 word for word from the NIV.


    First Timothy 3:16 is perhaps the greatest verse in the New Testament concerning the deity of Christ. In this verse, who was manifested in the flesh?


    In the second part of First Peter 4:14, how do [they] speak of Christ? And, what do we Christians do?


    Who are the three Persons of the Trinity in First John 5:7?


    Revelation 1:11 is another very important verse that proves the deity of Christ. In the first part of this verse Jesus said, "I am the A______________ and O___________, the _________ and the _______:"



    Conclusion: Little space is provided for your answers, but it's much more than needed. If you followed the instructions above, you not only failed the test, you receive a big goose egg.

    (Ed. These are all missing in the NIV.) So now what do you think of your "accurate, easy to understand, up to date Bible"?

    If you would like to improve your score, and in fact score 100%, you can take this test using the Authorized (King James) Bible.

    "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"
    Gal. 4:16
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Try Answering These From Your KJV

    By Pastor Larry

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    INSTRUCTIONS:

    Using the King James Version, answer the following questions.

    Do not rely on your memory. As the Bible is the final authority, you must take the answer from the Bible verse (not from footnotes but from the text).

    1. Where does God tell us that the King James Version is the only Word of God?

    Remember, use only your KJV. Do not use the writings of mere mortals. Use only your Bible since it is the final authority.
     
  9. Steve K.

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    Answer Psalm 12:6&7 hint; You can only find the answer if you have a real bible KJV.The mv smoke screen wil not give you the truth.Ask larry
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Thanks for responding. Let's take a look at this: Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Where does this verse identify the KJV as what God is preserving?? Did I miss the "KJV" somewhere?? Is it hidden in there?

    Let's compare:
    NKJV Psalm 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words, Like silver tried in a furnace of earth, Purified seven times. 7 You shall keep them, O LORD, You shall preserve them from this generation forever.

    NJB Psalm 12:6 Yahweh's promises are promises unalloyed, natural silver which comes from the earth seven times refined. 7 You, Yahweh, will watch over them, you will protect them from that brood for ever.

    Now we see that the NKJV and the NJB both make this claim, and thereby must be the word of God as well. Thus we see that if God is preserving his words in versions that claim it in Psalm 12:6-7, it is true that different things can be the word of God.

    However, as we have shown, this preservation is of teh godly man who in the context of the psalm is in danger of ceasing.

    So let me outline three problems:
    1. This verse does not identify the KJV, which is the biblical proof we need.
    2. The NKJV and NJB both say the same thing, thereby showing that different things can be the word of God, if indeed this verse is talking about that.
    3. This verse doesn't even talk about preservation of the Scriptures and therefore is miscited anyway.

    Perhaps I don't have the real bible KJV. I am not sure which revision that is. I only here with me that 1769 edition. Does your edition say something different? Tell me which edition of the KJV I need to have the "real bible KJV."

    If the Bible is truly your final authority, then show us from your KJV where the KJV is identified by God as the only word of God for us today.
     
  11. Steve K.

    Steve K.
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    Those who reject truth and teach heresy are not on my discussion list.Bye
     
  12. The Harvest

    The Harvest
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    So why don't you show me this truth?? I presented a very simple set up for you to show me. And yet you insist on throwing out this lie that I reject truth. I am asking you to show me the truth from God's word (the KJV) that the KJV is the only word of God. Why won't you simple show me this? Did God not say this? Are you making it up?? What's the deal here?
     
  14. The Archangel

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    To all,

    It occurs to me that to elevate the KJV to the status of "canonical" is nutty.

    The KJV itself is a translation of the Greek NT. and the Hebrew OT. Also, during the translation process, there were gaps in the NT manuscripts that were used. So, the translators translated parts of the Vulgate (latin) into Greek and retranslated that "greek" into English.

    If one were to be a hyper-translationalist, he or she should learn the original Hebrew and original Greek--along with Aramaic thrown in for good measure--and then, they could hold a claim to a specific, canonical translation.

    Not to mention, there were several editions of the AV KJV. Some of these had whacked-out missprints. For example, the 10 Commandments said in one wrong printing, "Thou Shalt commit adultery.

    It is unfortunate that sincere people choose to go way out into pure speculation about the KJV. Like I said, I think they are sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.

    Blessings,

    Archangel
     
  15. Archangel7

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    The obvious problem with a "test" like this is that it could just as easily be used to show "deficiencies" in the KJV. For example --

    INSTRUCTIONS:

    Using the King James Version of the Bible, answer the following questions.

    (1) John 14:14 contains important proof of Christ's divinity, since prayer is to be offered to God alone. According to this verse, who is it we are to ask for anything in Jesus' name?

    (2) Fill in the blanks from Acts 4:25 -- "You spoke by __________ through the mouth of your servant, our __________ David."

    (3) In Acts 16:7, Paul and his companions were not allowed to enter Bythinia. According to the verse, the Spirit of __________ prevented them?

    (4) In Romans 1:4, who was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead?

    (5) An important verse which teaches that the Holy Spirit is a person (and not a "thing" or an impersonal "it" ) is found in Romans 8:26. Find the personal reference to the Holy Spirit.

    (6) Fill in the blanks from Romans 8:34 -- "...who is the one who condemns? __________ __________ is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."

    (7) Titus 2:13 is one of the clearest statements of Christ's divinity in the New Testament. According to this verse, for whose glorious appearing do we wait?

    (8) Another important verse demonstrating Christ's divinity is found in 2 Peter 1:1. According to this verse, through whose righteousness have we received our precious faith?

    (9) Complete the following phrase from the first part of 1 John 3:1 -- "How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is __________!"

    (10) Fill in the missing words from Jude 25 -- "...to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through __________ __________ __________ __________ , before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."

    If you would like to improve your score, and in fact score 100%, you can take this test using the NIV.
     
  16. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    i've been doing a lot of studying and praying, and perhaps i'm just a dummy, but i feel certain the kjv is the preserved word of god in english.

    that means anyone who disagrees with me is, of necessity, hellbound.

    heh. that was a joke. [​IMG]

    thanks to everyone for their posts.
     
  17. martyr

    martyr
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    I'm for the highly accurate NAS myself. As for the KJV onlyists, did you know that there were 4 or 5 Textus Receptus' by which your version was taken? That means, that human error had more of a chance to take place. I don't think anything is wrong with using a KJV if you so choose, but it is not the best translation and not the only accurate one.
    Isn't it in the first version of the KJV the phrase, Thou shalt commit adultery? If it's highly accurate, then we need to be making plans without our wives this weekend.
     
  18. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    Isn't it in the first version of the KJV the phrase, Thou shalt commit adultery?

    lord, thy will be done! [​IMG]

    just kiddin', obviously. but printer's errors don't, imo, undermine the kjv.

    [ March 13, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: timothy 1969 ]
     
  19. Johnv

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    what are the best resources, pro and con, for evaluating the modern versions? thanks. websites, books, whatever.

    Go back to the Greek and Hebrew that the KJV was translated from. Comparing translation to translation is fruitless unless you can comare them to the source documentation.

    There are several printed and electronic resources that can assist you with that.
     
  20. Johnv

    Johnv
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    The Hebrew text which the KJV translators used does not read this way. It contains the words "to keep" and "to preserve", but does not include a pronoun pointing back to "them". Instead, it refers to "generational" events, in this case, God's promises.

    This reads this way in the KJV English translation. It does not read the same way in my Dutch and German bibles. In those, it preserves the contextual meaning of the Hebrew, as do some of the MV's.
     

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