morality, materialism, and Darwin

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Helen, Jul 2, 2003.

  1. Helen

    Helen
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    What's very surprising for people is that the first account of evolution didn't come in the middle of the 1800s with Darwin. A man named Lucretius, a Roman, wrote about 50 years before the birth of Christ a book called De Rerum Natura (On the Nature of Things). And in it you find this really long evolutionary passage. And you say, "How could this get here? I thought Darwin invented this or discovered this." And he really didn't. It's simply a deduction from materialism itself. If you don't have a God, and you think that matter just bangs around forever and eventually creates things, that view isn't at all modern. It's very ancient. Darwin just picked up on it.

    ...People don't read Charles Darwin's Descent of Man, where he himself draws out all the implications of his view of nature. No Christian can accept those. He's a very outspoken advocate of eugenics. And wouldn't he be? Farmers improve their livestock by better breeding. Darwin said, Why do we take care of our livestock so well, but don't take care of our own breeding so well?

    ....First of all, note that Darwinism is not something that was discovered. It's not a scientific discovery. And the sign of this is that it was 2,000 years old before it could have ever had any scientific vindication of it. It's a philosophical account. And that means it's an account of nature that filters out evidence that would contradict it.


    This is part of the beginning, middle and end of an interview in Christianity Today.
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/126/23.0.html

    He brings up points that are often forgotten or disputed so loudly by evolutionists that their very noise about it should give folks a clue.

    1. There is an inevitable (lack of) morality tied to evolution.

    2. Evolution blithely ignores what does not support it.

    3. Evolution is the inevitable result of materialism.

    4. Evolution is ancient and the reality of this philosophy in human affairs has nothing to do with Darwin, Erasmus or Charles, except by way of repopularizing it and trying to put a 'scientific' veneer on it.

    5. Evolution is, start to finish, foundation to results, a direct rebellion against God and His Word.
     
  2. The Galatian

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    There is an inevitable lack of morality tied to solid-state physics. Anyone who depends on science for his morality is going to be badly misled.

    If that were true, then it would not have been modified from time to time, to accomodate new evidence that did not support the earlier theory.

    Science changes as the facts demand. Creationism demands that the facts change. This is one of the important differences between creationism and science.

    It turned out to be the inevitable result of theism, too, because both people who established modern evolutionary science were theists when they did so.

    St. Augustine, for example, pointed out that Christian theology required that animals evolved from simpler organisms.

    Darwin's great discovery was the mechanism by which it happened.

    Since most Christians acknowledge that evolution is consistent with God's creation, that makes no sense. It's also absurd, since most scientists are theists.
     
  3. JamesJ

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    Every time I encounter this I wonder, "Has the person making this statement actually gotten the view of EVERY Christian to know what the majority thinks, or is this just a wishful assertion (or worse)"?
     
  4. Peter101

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    Helen, I invite your comments on the thread that I started on Carbon-14.
     
  5. The Galatian

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    Actually, creationists are a minority even in the U.S. (and the number of people so inclined has dropped a bit over the past few decades).

    And they are a tiny minority elsewhere. We've posted the evidence before. Would you like to see it again?
     
  6. Eladar

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    That is why I believe the term 'Christian' means absolutely nothing. Any title that one can claim for oneself if meaningless.
     
  7. The Galatian

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    Ah, the "only my kind are REAL Christians" act.

    You should be grateful that orthodox Christians are tolerant people.
     
  8. Eladar

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    No, only God's people are God's people. A self proclaimed title is meaningless.

    1 John 2:3-4

    By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
     
  9. The Galatian

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    Also meaningless are attempts to remove Christians from God's people.

    Those who attempt to do this are merely distancing themselves from God.

    Don't to it to yourself.
     
  10. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;5. Evolution is, start to finish, foundation to results, a direct rebellion against God and His Word.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Seems to me that the concept of evolution is not even discussed in the bible. So your claim that it is a rebellion against God depends quite strongly on a strained interpretation of what you believe to be God's word.
     
  11. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;Every time I encounter this I wonder, "Has the person making this statement actually gotten the view of EVERY Christian to know what the majority thinks, or is this just a wishful assertion (or worse)"?&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    It is not necessary to ask EVERY Christian in order to know what the majority of Christians think. If you think it is necessary then you don't understand statistics, polling etc.
     
  12. Meatros

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    This is because evolution *isn't* a belief/morality system. I mean, can you judge morality based on the theory of gravity?

    Like what? As the Galation said, if this were true the theory of evolution would not have changed at all since it's inception. IT has though, it's been added to by other research.

    Yet another strawman. Three for three.

    But point one dismisses evolution as a philosophy, so how can you then call it a philosophy??

    What you assume about evolution doesn't effect the theory. Whatever you conclude about a theory, has no bearing on it's validity. How does your interpretation of evolution as a rebellion against God, effect the evidence?

    It doesn't.

    All of these points are nonsense.
     
  13. Helen

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    Going down the posts one at a time:

    Galatian: Your logic is bizarre. There is nothing about solid state physics which leads to any moral conclusions. There definitely is that about evolution. That is one of the main points of the article I linked.

    Evolution definitely ignores all manner of evidence against it – or fairy-tales its way around it. Millions of generations of E.coli with nothing to result except E.coli, dead or alive. The massive number of mutations needed for evolution from invertebrate to mammal vs. generation times. Over-speciation. ReMine in his Biotic Message does an excellent job of detailing a number of the problems. Evolution has to ignore them!

    To call evolution an ‘inevitable result’ of theism, too, is pure deception. If God said He created in six days, and He does say that in Genesis, then evolution is simply ruled out and creation is the inevitable result of believing God’s straightforward word in the Bible – something evolutionists cannot afford to do.

    Darwin made no great discoveries. He was even ashamed of his own material at first! He was pressured into publication. That’s first. Second is that natural selection is a farce where evolution is concerned. It deletes entire sections of populations by killing them off, thus depriving the remaining members of the variability potential the lost members carried. This leads to over-speciation. This leads to extinction. This is from the data, not from wishful evolutionary thinking.

    Evolution is based on materialism. Materialism is rebellion against God. That is why evolution, from its foundation is rebellion against God. It does not matter what ‘most’ anyone says. The only thing that matters is what God says. He spoke this universe into existence as well as the life on earth and then He told us He did it that way in Genesis.

    It’s called creation.

    And no, it’s not a matter of “only my kind are REAL Christians.’ It is a matter that only those who are born again and members of God’s family are real Christians. This is a personal thing between a person and God, not a matter of any church or of going to church. Therefore, Galatian, you have no idea what ‘most’ Christians think, since those who are truly His are known, in full, only to HIM.

    Peter101: evolution does not have to be ‘discussed’ in the Bible. Creation is. And quite thoroughly, too. That eliminates evolution as a possibility for anyone taking God’s Word as truth. What’s neat is that God’s creation makes the same testimony as God’s Word does: evolution is not even a possibility except for those determined to reject God’s Word and, often God Himself.

    Meatros: Evolution is most definitely a belief system – especially since it’s never been seen to happen! It is based on the belief system of materialism, and that is very directly tied to a lack of morality on the part of those holding to it. I suggest you read the article at the start of this thread.
     
  14. The Galatian

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    That's what I told you, Helen.

    Nope. Nothing. Anyone who hopes to draw a moral lesson from anything is science is very foolish. There are no moral conclusions to be had from evolution at all.

     
  15. Meatros

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    Evolution has been seen to occur, although I'm sure you would label it differently (microevolution), yet I'm also betting that you wouldn't be able to tell me what mechanisms prevent microevolution from becoming macroevolution given enough time.

    In any event, it's a pathetic strawman in my opinion. You say it's based on a materialism, let's see you prove it.
     

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