More civilians killed by US troops?

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by Terry_Herrington, Jun 2, 2006.

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  1. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington
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  2. Shiloh

    Shiloh
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    So what...............this is war isn't it?
     
  3. Scott J

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    Does point up a key difference though doesn't it?

    We will take these accusations very seriously. We will gather evidence and put these men on trial for their crimes. If convicted, we will punish them and they will be considered a shame to their unit, service, country, and family. Their names may live in infamy like Lt Callie (sp?).

    Had they been fighters for our enemies, they'd be considered heroes. They probably would have mutilated those bodies given the opportunity. Their names would receive special honor. The idea of punishing them for "crimes" would be absurd in the extreme.

    I believe the investigations and possible trials should go on. We are better and more just for doing so. But a little perspective is in order before we use something like this as a justification to cut and run.
     
  4. Scott J

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    One side thinks so... Many Americans seem to be confused about that though. They think they can refuse to be at war with the enemy even if the enemy refuses to be at peace with us.
     
  5. Daisy

    Daisy
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    Iraq has never attacked the US. We attacked them, unprovoked, as a "preemptive strike".

    Iraq had been co-operating by this time with the UN weapons inspectors when Bush declared that since he knew where the Weapons of Mass Destruction were (remember Powell with his arial photos with the mobile labs circled in yellow?), since Iraq might strike us at any minute the inspections were a waste of precious time.

    Oopsie. Oh well, who cares?
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis
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    I still believe our soldiers do everything in their power to prevent these incidents. Probably to their peril.
     
  7. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    yeah!!! Nook'm, but Nook'm DAAAAYED!

    :tear:
     
  8. Scott J

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    Unprovoked? That's a matter of perspective. Certainly it was preemptive.

    No they weren't. They had alternately "cooperated"... to a degree and kicked the inspectors out. Their behavior contributed to the suspicion that they were hiding and moving the weapons.

    If the unaccounted for weapons do exist, the answer to the question "Why weren't they used?" may be that he moved them to a neighboring country or unaccessible hiding place to avoid what expected to be the next round of inspectors that would have to be tolerated since Coalition forces were massed for attack.

    Please cite where Bush or Powell made such claims on their own expertise or authority. Please cite proof that Powell or Bush fabricated those photos or the Intel analysis.

    The best experts at the time concluded that these things were mobile labs and that the threat was immediate. If the intelligence community of virtually every nation with interest wrongly considered Saddam's WMD threat to be legit and Putin even recounted that Saddam had ambitions to promote terrorism against the US... it is quite a revision of history to lay blame at Bush's feet.

    He did what I would expect anyone sworn to protect the US would do. He took decisive action against what the "experts" said was an immediate threat to the US.

    I care. I care that mistakes were made by the "experts" in Intel. I care that their capabilities were so eroded starting with Carter and reaching a low point with Clinton that they couldn't make accurate assessments.

    I care that Bush-haters have distorted both the rationale and conduct of the war for their own political benefit. I care that Bush has made real mistakes but can't open about them without being crucified. For that matter, I care that I feel the need to defend him because of the irrational rants of his haters when I'd rather be critical myself.

    I care that our people are over there in danger. I care that about 2500 have died and many others will bear the scars of battle for the rest of their lives. I care that military families are hurting. I care that reservists lives have been disrupted.

    I care that progress has been impeded by non-Iraqi terrorists. I care that people are dying because those foreign terrorists won't let the rebuilding be completed and autonomy restored. I care that some seem to think our President and military are more the enemy than al Qaeda is or more responsible for the continuing violence. Do you really think our guys would go around arbitrarily shooting people if Al Qaeda stopped fighting?

    I care that according to the UN inspectors there are still WMD's unaccounted for somewhere in that region. I care that the terrorists probably have better means for finding them than we do. I care that they'd very much like to attack NY or Missouri with them.

    I care that radical Islamic states support terrorism against the West and Israel. I care that they don't want to make peace and are teaching their children to hate us... whether we attack them or not... and have been for years. I care that people like Saddam could build means of attacking and hurting my kids.

    I care that people like you think we can sit idly by while these people do their thing, appease them, and never pay a price. I care that my kids or grandkids my have to pay for that miscalculation. I care that some are "Jimmy Carter" foolish enough to believe that if we just talk long enough and make enough concessions that Islamic fervor to dominate the war will evaporate.

    Who cares? I do.
     
  9. Scott J

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    Yes. But that isn't convenient to those who want to bash Bush and use his low popularity rather than their own ideals to "take back our country".
     
  10. carpro

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    I never want to condone murder,but things are rarely what they seem to be in a war being fought amongst a civilian population.

    The "innocent" are frequently not so "innocent", but are always described as such by reporters hungry for headlines and Bush haters who believe they can somehow tarnish Bush by tarnishing Marines currently doing the toughest job in the world.

    Unfortunately, Marines and soldiers sometimes overreact to a buddy getting killed or a near miss. It has happened in all wars and will continue to happen, no matter who or where the war is. They should always be given the benefit of the doubt.

    But Bush haters can't seem to avoid the vicarious thrill they seem to get by convicting these young warriors on the flimsiest of evidence.
     
  11. Bro. Curtis

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    It's easy, once you write them all off as idiots.
     
  12. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    careful, bud ... you cld be branded a Bush Hater for branding "them all" as idiots.

    :smilewinkgrin:
     
  13. Jim1999

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    It is easy for those who have never been on the battlefield to condemn the actions of some young soldiers. Whether the allied forces are there for just cause or not, the military are there at the bidding of their superiors.

    They are also trained to go into action. When some dastardly deed is perpetrated upon their own, a reaction is natural.

    In Korea, young pregnant ladies entered camps to receive chocs and food from the troops. They were heavily armed with grenades. When they got enough troops around them they released the pins on the grenades. Who is the enemy? This is the question circling the minds of soldiers at war. When do we attack? Who do we kill?

    Survival becomes the operative word when one has been there long enough. We saw 500 troops with drums and bugles attack the barbedwire fences. They were shot down and fell upon the fencing. The next lot came and used those bodies to jump the fences. When do we kill? ALways the question when on the battlefield.

    Again, it is easy to make decisions on Good Street, America. Try making the same decisions when you are on Battlefield Boulevard, and bombs, bullets and bloodshed is all about you.

    Not a pretty picture, my friends. I do not attempt to exonerate those who kill civilians, but again I ask, Who is the enemy?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  14. Terry_Herrington

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    Good post Jim. These marines should be given every benefit of doubt. It is one thing to, in the heat of battle, as Jim says for civilians get caught up in the fighting. This is especially true when the enemy uses civilians as cover. It is another to deliberately shoot and kill civilians. I hope that these marines are innocent of these charges.

    The truly sad part is that our armed forces are in Iraq in the first place.
     
  15. AF Guy N Paradise

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    You are so misinformed as are many others...

    If you could only sit in some of my meetings and really see what is going on; but I doubt that you have a Top Secret clearance?
     
  16. Terry_Herrington

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    Is your "Top Secret clearance" supposed to impress us?:sleep:

    Honestly, I will trust CNN over what you say. After all, being a secret agent man and all, it might be your assignment to lie to us for national security purposes.:laugh:
     
  17. Shiloh

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    ANYONE that "trusts" CNN........can't be taken serious!:laugh:
     
  18. Terry_Herrington

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    Anyone who trust what people say on message boards....can't be taken serious!:laugh:
     
  19. carpro

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    Then why are you here?:smilewinkgrin:
     
  20. AF Guy N Paradise

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    We did watch CNN a lot during Desert Shield and Desert Storm. Man, how times and technology have improved.

    Terry, I was not trying to impress anyone, but I have been serving this great country for 19 years plus and may know a little bit more than some on here spouting about Bush and the military. I was part of Desert Shield and Desert Storm, Restore Hope, and many other exercises and operations.

    If I sounded cocky or arrogant, please forgive me. Daisy, that goes for you as well.
     
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