More dynamic equivalence in the KJV

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by natters, Aug 13, 2004.

  1. natters

    natters
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    Here are some more examples of dynamic equivalence in the KJV. These are not found by me, nor have any modern scholars uncovered these - these are from the Translators themselves, indicated in their notes int the 1611 KJV. They appear on almost every page, here are a few random pages worth of notes. In these instances, has the KJV preserved "words" or "thoughts"?

    Dan 2:25
    KJV has "captives of Judah", Chaldee says "children of the captivity of Judah"

    Dan 3:4
    KJV has "Then a herald cried aloud, To you it is commanded", Chaldee has "Then a herald cried with might, To you they command"

    2 Kings 25:6
    KJV has "they gave judgement upon him", Hebrew has "they spake judgement with him".

    2 Kings 25:7
    KJV has "put out the eyes of Zedekiah", Hebrew has "made blind Zedekiah".

    2 Kings 25:11
    KJV has "fugitives", Hebrew has "fallen away".

    2 Kings 25:18
    KJV has "door", Hebrew has "threshold".

    2 Kings 25:19
    KJV has "them that were in the kings presence", Hebrew has "them that saw the kings face".

    2 Kings 25:25
    KJV has "of the seed royal", Hebrew has "of the kingdom".

    Psalm 89:1 and 4
    KJV has "to all generations", Hebrew has "to generation and generation".

    Psalm 89:10
    KJV has "with thy strong arm", Hebrew has "with the arm of thy strength"

    Psalm 89:13
    KJV has "Thou hast a mighty arm", Hebrew has "Thou hast an arm with might".

    Isaiah 22:6
    KJV has "uncovered", Hebrew has "made naked"

    Isaiah 22:17
    KJV has "a mighty captivity", Hebrew has "the captivity of a man"

    Isaiah 22:18
    KJV has "a large country", Hebrew has "large of spaces"

    Isaiah 23:2
    KJV has "still", Hebrew has "silent".

    Isaiah 23:7
    KJV has "her own feet shall carry her afar off", Hebrew has "her own fee shall carry her from afar off"

    Isaiah 23:9
    KJV has "to stain", Hebrew has "to pollute"

    Isaiah 23:10
    KJV has "strength", Hebrew has "girdle"

    Isaiah 23:15
    KJV has "shall Tyre sing as an harlot", Hebrew has "it shall be unto Tyre as the song of an harlot"

    Isaiah 23:18
    KJV has "durable", Hebrew has "old"

    Isaiah 24:1
    KJV has "turneth it upside down", Hebrew has "perverted the face thereof"

    Isaiah 24:4
    KJV has "haughty people", Hebrew has "the height of the people"

    Isaiah 24:16
    KJV has "uttermost part", Hebrew has "wing"

    Eph 1:10
    KJV has "in heaven", Greek has "in the heavens"

    Eph 1:19
    KJV has "his mighty power", Greek has "the might of his power"

    Eph 2:3
    KJV has "desires", Greek has "wills"

    More later.
     
  2. Askjo

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    Margin notes!

    [ August 15, 2004, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    If that is all you can say,
    you really do need to straighten
    your bowels. I see brother natters
    has really [​IMG] refreshed his
    own bowels [​IMG]
     
  4. natters

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    Askjo said "Margin notes!"

    Yes, margin notes. Margin notes where the KJV translators gave the literal translation, indicating the actual text in the KJV in these places are dynamic equivalency.
     
  5. HankD

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    natters, something I've suspected all along with the KJVO folks here is that although they deny being disciples of Dr. Peter Ruckman, they have supported every one of his doctrines.

    Now it may be that they have not had first person contact with him and may not even know who he is but nonetheless they reiterate each of his arguments and are possibly 2nd or 3rd generation adherents.

    Therefore you will get nowhere by appealing to the Hebrew and here's why: The following is a quote out of one of his books

    HankD
     
  6. michelle

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    1 Samuel 18 (KJB)

    6. And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick.
    7. And the women answered one another as they played, and said, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands.
    8. And Saul was very wroth, and the saying displeased him; and he said, They have ascribed unto David ten thousands, and to me they have ascribed but thousands: and what can he have more but the kingdom?
    9. And Saul eyed David from that day and forward.


    now compare to:


    An example or two may help clarify. After exhorting Timothy to honor widows and respect elders, Paul writes:


    Give the people these instructions, too, so that no one may be open to blame. [1 Timothy 5:7, NIV]
    This is a thought for thought translation of what the King James Version renders, word for word:


    And these things give in charge, that they may be blameless.

    Though the latter is a more accurate translation of the text, the former gives a more accurate portrayal of what Paul was telling Timothy. "Give in charge" is rendered "give...instructions;" "people" is inserted where it is implied, though the verse contains no explicit Greek word for "people."

    Here is another example. After David began to gain popularity in Israel, King Saul grew more and more suspicious of him:


    Saul was very angry, this refrain galled him. "They have credited David with tens of thousands," he thought, "but me with only thousands. What more can he get but the kingdom?" And from that time on Saul kept a jealous eye on David. [1 Samuel 18:8-9, NIV]

    Compare this dynamic equivalence translation of the last sentence with how it is rendered word for word:


    And Saul eyed David from that day and forward. [1 Samuel 18:9, KJV]

    The Hebrew text does not contain an explicit word for "jealous," though 'avan, "to watch" or "to eye" implies jealousy. In the context of Saul and David's declining relationship, the dynamic equivalence translator determined that including the word "jealous" more accurately described what the original author was intending.


    (my comments: Oh really, then what say they to this then: 1 Kings 14:22

    Notice also they added[B/] "he thought" to this text also. He didn't think it, he SAIDit.)


    Dynamic Equivalency today is very different:

    Like other methods of translating the Bible from its original languages, dynamic equivalence has its advantages and its drawbacks. In dynamic equivalence, the translator seeks to provide a more accurate translation by paying attention to such things as idiom and slang. The translator translates not word for word, but thought for thought, or phrase by phrase.

    As with formal equivalence, the goal is of course accuracy. Dynamic equivalence tries to correct the shortcomings of word for word translating by translating not precisely what the original author wrote, but what he most likely meant.

    information from:

    http://thesumners.com/bible/methods2.html


    So the modern scholars today have the wonderful ability of being able to know the THOUGHTS of the origional authors. They have telepathy. Amazing. Who are the ones guilty of believing advanced revelation?


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  7. natters

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    Michelle, we're not talking about dynamic equivalency in other versions in this thread. Please start another thread for that if you wish. This thread is about the dynamic equivalence in the KJV and how it PROVES that a "preservation of words" did not happen. Thank you.
     
  8. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    Michelle, we're not talking about dynamic equivalency in other versions in this thread. Please start another thread for that if you wish. This thread is about the dynamic equivalence in the KJV and how it PROVES that a "preservation of words" did not happen. Thank you.
    --------------------------------------------------


    God did promise the preservation of His words (Deut.8:1-3, Psalm 12,Prov.30, Matt.4:4, 5:18, 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33) as the scriptures are full of this truth, and the evidence we can hold them in our hands, and feel/know them in our hearts, and live them in our lives. The evidence of it has been for centuries within our very own languagein the churches. Your little thread "PROVES" nothing.

    This thread is attacking the words of God and his promises concerning them and my faith and the faith of others for believing them. (3:1)
    To this I will ALWAYS RESPOND.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  9. natters

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    Michelle, my little thread proves that sometimes "thoughts" were perserved in the KJV and not "words".

    You said "To this I will ALWAYS RESPOND." and I say "That's great! Just stick to the topic!"
     
  10. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    You said "To this I will ALWAYS RESPOND." and I say "That's great! Just stick to the topic!"
    --------------------------------------------------

    As I have, but you dislike what I bring up. So sorry, but I was not off topic. You just don't want to see the comparison, do ya? It is showing you are wrong in your assumptions and false proof. You are trying to show a skewed, biased and false representation of what Dynamic Equivalency was then, to what it is today. This is misleading and I will point out the comparisons, for the benefit of those who might be reading, and not know otherwise.

    It is quite relevent to this topic, and this issue at hand.

    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  11. natters

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    michelle said "you dislike what I bring up."

    No I don't, I just wish you would start a new thread with whatever you want to talk about, instead of changing the topic of existing threads. This thread is not about comparison - feel free to start a thread about comparison and I will respond there. This thread is about how dynamic equivalency in the KJV demonstrates that "word preservation" did not always take place in the KJV. KJV-onlyism claims "word preservation", thus showing where it did not occur is proving KJV-onlyisms claims to be untrue. If you have any comments on that for this thread, instead of comparison with other versions, I would enjoy them.
     
  12. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    This thread is about how dynamic equivalency in the KJV demonstrates that "word preservation" did not always take place in the KJV.
    --------------------------------------------------


    What is your understanding of 1.)preservation, and 2.)dynamic equivalency? then? now? 3.)where can I find God's preserved words today in my own language? 4.)how do you know? (scriptural support please)


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  13. natters

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    michelle, why not ask in another thread instead of STILL trying to change the subject of this one?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Acts 17:10-11 (HCSB): As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas off to Beroea. On arrival, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
    11 The people here were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, since they welcomed the message with eagerness and examined the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

    Deut.8:1-3 - mentions the commands of God, not the words of God.
    It requires that people keep the commands of God

    Psalm 12 - This says in vers 6 that the (written) word of GOd
    is pure. It does not say that God will preserve His written word.

    Prov.30 - "preserve" is not mentioned in Proverbs 30.
    "word" mentioned is the word of Agur.

    Matt.4:4 - doesn't mention that God preserves His written word.
    Does mention that we need the written word of God to continue
    to live

    Matt. 5:18 - doesn't mention that God preserves His written word.
    Does mention that God's law will be preserved, a significant
    subset of His written word.

    Matt. 24:35 Ah, finally a verse about the preservation of
    God's word.

    Matthew 24:35 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
    Heaven and earth will pass away,
    but My words will never pass away.


    Mark 13:31 (parallel passage to Matthew 24:35)

    Luke 21:33 (parallel passage to Matthew 24:35 and Mark 13:31)

    ONE correct passage. Recall that God repeats His most important
    words over and over so they will be preserved and not lost.
    Even if Mark all got lost, God's words would be preserved
    in the other two parallel passages. It does seem strange that
    5 wrong verses had to be gone through to find the right verses.

    BTW, the topic of discussion in this thread is the
    dynamic equivalence in the KJV. Sorry, i couldn't resist
    exposing phony Bible citations to prove a principle.
    There are enough honest Bible citations to prove that
    God will preserve both His written word
    (Bible) and His Living Word (Iesus).


    \O/ Praise Iesus, Sonne of God \O/
     
  15. michelle

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    --------------------------------------------------
    michelle, why not ask in another thread instead of STILL trying to change the subject of this one?
    --------------------------------------------------

    Because it is relevent to this thread: "More dynamic equivalence in the KJV". You asked:

    "In these instances, has the KJV preserved "words" or "thoughts"?"

    You must explain what you mean by dynamic equivalence and preservation and in a biblical perspective with scriptural support, as the scriptures are the believers final authority in all matters of faith and practice. And this issue is dealing with the scriptures themselves, trying to prove we do not have the preserved words of God in our language.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  16. michelle

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    Sorry Ed, but you would not know the commands of the Lord, nor the Law of the Lord, nor prophecy, nor would you be able to live by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God, if HE had not preserved and provided them for you. It is very relevant to this thread. You claim those verses do not promise preservation of God's words. You are simply wrong. They indeed do. And God has indeed preserved and provided them to us in our language for centuries.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  17. natters

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    Here's some more, from random pages:

    Isaiah 3:17 - KJV has "discover", Hebrew has "make naked"

    Isaiah 3:20 - KJV has "tablets", Hebrew has "houses of the soul"

    Isaiah 3:25 - KJV has "mighty", Hebrew has "might"

    Isaiah 4:1 - KJV has "let us be called by thy name", Hebrew has "let thy name be called upon us"

    Isaiah 4:2 - KJV has "beautiful and glorious" and "for them that are escaped of Israel", Hebrew has "beauty and glory" and "for the escaping of Israel".

    Isaiah 4:5 - KJV has "a defence", Hebrew has "a covering"

    Isaiah 5:1 - KJV has "a very fruitful hill", Hebrew has "the horn of the son of oil"

    Isaiah 5:5 - KJV has "trodden down", Hebrew has "for a treading"

    Isaiah 5:7 - KJV has "his pleasant plant" and "oppression", Hebrew has "plant of his pleasures" and "a scab".

    Isaiah 5:9 - KJV has "Of a truth", Hebrew has "If not"

    Isaiah 5:13 - KJV has "their honorable men are famished", Hebrew has "their glory are men of famine"

    Isaiah 5:20 - KJV has "that call evil good", Hebrew has "that say concerning evil, it is good"

    Isaiah 5:21 - KJV has "prudent in their own sight", Hebrew has "prudent before their face"

    Isaiah 5:24 - KJV has "fire", Hebrew has "tongue of fire"

    Here's a chapter that's not so random, but should be interesting:

    Psalm 23:2 - KJV has "green pastures" and "still waters", Hebrew has "pastures of tender grass" and "waters of quietness"

    Psalm 23:5 - KJV has "anointest my head", Hebrew has "makest fat my head" [​IMG]

    Psalm23:6 - KJV has "for ever", Hebrew has "to length of days"
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Brother Natters -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Thank you for refreshing my bowels in
    the Lord today! May God be liberal
    today with blessing toward you,
    your family, and your ministy. Amen.

    \O/ Praise Iesus, Sonne of God \O/
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Amen, Sister MIchelle -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    God has preserved His Words for us today.
    He has done it in the Modern Versions (MVs)
    translated from the Hort/Westcott Greek
    soruces; He has done it in the Modern Versions
    (MVs) translated from the Textus Receptus (TR);
    He has done it according to His promise
    in the Bible.

    Still you lack a good list of where in
    the Bible God promises He will Preserve
    His Written Word(s). I am not disagreing
    with your conclusion, but with your
    proof texts.

    \O/ Praise Iesus, Sonne of God \O/
     
  20. michelle

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    Yes, and AMEN!! those are all God's preserved words in our language. Praise the Lord our God, for He is faithful and true, and lovingkind and very giving.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     

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