More Extremes of “Crossless” Gospel Apologists

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Lou Martuneac, Mar 21, 2008.

  1. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Following is just one more example of the extremism coming from the GES's “Crossless” Gospel, by way of Antonio da Rosa.

    Following comment made by Antonio about the Lord Jesus. Rose of *Rose’s Reasonings wrote an article titled, Is Christ’s Deity Essential? In the thread that followed (6/15/2007 @ 7:08 PM) Antonio wrote,


    This is among the most egregious and dangerous statements to date coming from Antonio da Rosa or any advocate of the “Crossless” gospel. The Mormon Jesus is believed to be a spirit (or half) brother of the Devil. To equate the Mormon view of Jesus with the biblical Jesus is as abominable a heresy as can possibly be uttered about Him. For further review of this see Can the Biblical Jesus & Mormon Jesus be "One and the Same?"

    Antonio da Rosa and GES men will say this kind of thing about Jesus because they believe the lost do not have to understand or believe that Jesus is the Son of God (Deity). This is whey the Crossless advocates, must also strip the Lord's titles “the Christ” and the “Son of God” of their deity.

    For a comprehensive view of the GES (Zane Hodges in particular) assualt on the deity of Christ. See the two part series:

    The “Christ” Under Siege

    The “Christ” Under Siege: The New Assault from the Grace Evangelical Society

    As far as da Rosa and GES are concerned the Mormon can cling to his belief in the half-brother of Satan and a promise of eternal life from that false Christ and still be born again.

    The GES/da Rosa tell you that they will deal with his “misconceptions” about Jesus after he believes in the promise as though he has been saved and just needs some crash course discipleship. In the personal evangelism setting, however, if the lost man refuses to accept and/or openly rejects the Lord's deity, da Rosa explain his response,
    da Rosa also says,
    And he would leave the lost man's rejection of the Lord's deity on the “back-burner.” If the discipleship fails to convince him that Jesus is God, da Rosa says he will separate from him a though he is an erring brother.

    These are on-going examples of the egregious errors coming from Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin as expressed by their (“Crossless” gospel) most vocal apologist, Antonio da Rosa.

    The GES, Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin and their followers have become teachers of a false Gospel and other assorted doctrinal errors. Their assault on the deity of Christ is just one example. They are undermining the Word of God for reductionist views of the Gospel. They are doing all they can to spread their egregious errors into evangelical circles. Thankfully, many have come to recognize this and have followed the biblical mandates to “mark” these men who are the “cause (of) divisions and offences” in the body of Christ and local churches through their “contrary doctrine,” and believers are being warned to “avoid them.” (Romans 16:17)

    May I remind our pastors of Paul’s admonition, which should resonate today just as clearly as it did to the Ephesian elders,

    LM

    *Rose's Reasonings is administered by Rose. She has become dedicated to the promotion and defense of the Zane Hodges Crossless view of the Gospel and especially its most vocal advocate Antonio da Rosa.
     
  2. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Note to Readers:

    My primary goal is to alert believers across Baptist circles that there is a false Gospel known as the “Crossless” gospel, and name some of its most vocal advocates

    Antonio da Rosa has been banned and or reprimanded at various blogs for his doctrinal errors, extreme combativeness, vitriol and generally poor behavior. In less than 5 posts he was banned at Sharper Iron earlier this week.

    If da Rosa appears in this thread I want to make clear now that I have no intention responding to any of his tactics. I will, however, add what I feel is needed to shine the light of truth on his egregious doctrinal errors.

    Another who rejects the Crossless Gospel and tried to engage da Rosa in a balanced discussion had to drop out with these comments to Antonio,
    These comments were directed to Rose, the blog administrator
    I have had these same experiences and conclusions with da Rosa. This is why I will not acknowledge him except to protect the unsuspecting from his dangerous theology.


    LM
     
  3. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    I forget to mention earlier that Antonio is also known as the Sock Puppet: fg me.

    This he refuses to admit to or even deny, but he is fg me.


    LM
     
  4. D28guy

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    What does GES stand for?

    Mike
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
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    Grace Evangelical Society.
     
  6. D28guy

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    I'm surprised to see Zane Hodges named in such a negative thread. I dont know anything about this "Grace Evangelical Society" but I do have a book by Zane Hodges from back in the late 80's or early 90's and it is just excellent. Very very good.

    I'll check out GES and see whats going on. I just cant imagine Zane Hodges "assaulting the Diety of Christ" as was said in the 1st post.

    Mike
     
  7. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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  8. D28guy

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    Lou,

    Thans for the link.

    Well, from reading that all I can say is that this seems to me to be a case of people engaging in ultra "nit picking", and "selective quoting".

    What comes to mind is Christs statement...

    From reading the quotes from Hodges contained in the material from your link I see no justification whatsoever to accuse Hodges of "assaulting the Diety of Christ" or proclaiming a "crossless gospel".

    From their statement of beliefs page:

    Do you guys really think that Zane Hodges believes that Christs atonement for our sins...the cross and all that was involved in His sacrifice on our behalf...was meaningless and un-necesarry??? (..."crossless gospel")

    Or that Hodges is out there like the Jehovahs Witnesses out declaring that Jesus Christ was not God??? ("...assaulting the Diety of Christ")

    God bless,

    Mike
     
    #8 D28guy, Mar 22, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 22, 2008
  9. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Mike:

    There is much more, and I mean volumes from Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkin that leave no doubt these men have departed from the faith once delivered. Brief articles and journals are meant to show samples of the extremes.

    If you want thorough documentation, and you'll have to do the reading, I suggest you read the multi-part series by Ps. Tom Stegall. It is titled, The Tragedy of the "Crossless" Gospel.

    You will find it at the Grace Family Journal and it can be downloaded in PDF form.


    LM
     
  10. Lou Martuneac

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    The Crux of Controversy

    Mike:

    The controversy is not over what these men personally believe, or what they might tell a lost person in a personal evangelism setting. It s not over what they think made salvation possible.

    The crux of debate is that Hodges, Wilkin, GES insist a lost man does not have to understand or believe anything about who Jesus is and what He did to provide salvation, but can still be born again.

    These men strip the Lord's title of their deity and that is, therefore, IMO an assault on His Person and Nature.


    LM
     
  11. Lou Martuneac

    Lou Martuneac
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    Mike:

    Any thoughts on this statement by da Rosa?

    LM
     
  12. D28guy

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    Lou,

    In and of itself I completly disagree with that statement. That particular statement is very problematic. I would however like to read the entire discourse or article that statement came from to get the context.

    But I need a lot more that just that to discredit as false teachers who "assault the diety of Christ" and "teach a crossless gospel" people like Zane Hodges and everyone else associated with that organization. Everything I've encountered so far while perusing the GES website is very good.

    I will check out the more recent links you have shared however.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  13. HankD

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    This is NOT an indictment against any of these men or organizations. I don't know them, but rather a contention against the statements of a supposed "crossless" Gospel and a denial of (or a silence concerning) "the Christ" and His persona.

    The apostle Paul had something to say about the doctrine of "circumcision" over the offending cross of Jesus Christ.

    Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.​

    John the apostle had something to say about the persona of Jesus Christ as "the Christ".​

    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
    He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.​

    2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

    AGAIN:
    This is NOT an indictment against any of these men or organizations. I don't know them, but rather a contention against the statements of a supposed "crossless" Gospel and a denial of (or a silence concerning) "the Christ" and His persona.


    HankD
     
    #13 HankD, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2008
  14. Lou Martuneac

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    The reason da Rosa and Hodges tear down the Lord’s titles is partly because of John 20:30-31

    Belief in who the Lord is (Deity) is clearly taught in the passage. da Rosa, however, says that the lost do not have to understand or believe, and can even reject the Lord’s deity and still be saved. He, therefore has to neuter this Lord’s titles, “the Christ” and “Son of God” that obviously imply His deity.

    This is also how he can make the absurd statement,
    In da Rosa's (Hodges) teaching the lost do not have to acknowledge or believe that Jesus is Deity. In their system a Mormon who believes in the Mormon Jesus (the half-brother of Satan) is born again. Antonio da Rosa figures that even that major “misconception” does not hinder him from being born again and should be put on the “back burner” to be addressed later. (Those quotes are from da Rosa)

    In addition to reading about what these men say and believe I suggest that you ask one of them yourself.

    This is Antonio da Rosa’s blog. Free Grace Theology*

    Ask Antonio how he would reply to a lost man who says to him,
    LM

    *da Rosa’s view of Free Grace theology is the GES view which is the most radical and antithetical to Scripture you will find in most any evangelical circles. The GES view does not represent or speak for many men in the Free Grace camp who reject and have separated from Zane Hodges, Wilkin and GES over their egregious doctrinal errors.
     
    #14 Lou Martuneac, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2008
  15. D28guy

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    Brother Lou,

    Well, I've spent 2 or 3 days now perusing the links you have provided, as well as the GES website. From all of this reading I have done I still feel like you guys on your side of it are making a mountain out of a molehill.

    I have no problem with what those associated with GES are teaching, including Zane Hodges. (This De Rosa brother I'm not as familiar with) I even put in a request for their publication.

    From some of the quotes you have shared I thought that maybe there was a problem, but from digging into their material myself I have no problem with GES.

    I find on their website enormous evidence that they completly understand and proclaim the importance of Christs diety, and his substitutionary death on the cross on our behalf. Its overwhelming that they believe and propagate those truths.

    I think that what they are attempting to counter...and what bugs you guys so much...is the idea that being born again is not a case of the new convert scoring 100% on a doctrinal quiz.

    In reality, rather than demanding a passing grade on a doctrinal quiz, we are sharing the person, the living Divine person of Jesus Christ to the seeker.

    As an example, lets say two people share Jesus with a lost person. The 1st one shares many wonderful truths, but...maybe absentmindedly...leaves out that Christ is God. The second person shares much wonderful truth, including that Christ was God, but accidently leaves out that Christ died on the cross for our sins.

    If those 2 individuals are experiencing conviction, and are being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and they place their faith in Christ, crying out for new and eternal life, they will both be born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit. They responded to the light that was given.

    Concerning the truth that was left out, those are clearly very important truths....and the new believer will of course be introduced to those truths very quickly somewhere down the line as they become part of the christian community.(church fellwship, bible study, etc) And when they do, they will of course be immedietly receptive of those truths. The Holy Spirit will make sure of it.



    Here is an example of some witnessing/preaching found in the book of Acts:

    And here is another...



    In the 1st example, "dieing for our sins" is not mentioned, and in the 2nd example neither Christ dieing for our sins nor Christ's Diety is mentioned.

    Yet those were surely witnessing encounters where God annointed the encounters and new life was granted.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
    #15 D28guy, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2008
  16. Allan

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    While I do not agree or disagree with your findings, I must by virtue of the truth have issue with the statemement;
    No matter how you slice and dice that statement, it is false and nearly if not actually heretical. (and I use that word very seldom)

    For any believer to make such a statement is either 1)immature or a babe in the faith or 2) ignorant regarding the faith. But in either case should not be teaching (IMO) concerning the faith.

    That statement alone makes me question their understanding of the gospel and Christ regarding it.
     
    #16 Allan, Mar 23, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2008
  17. D28guy

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    Allan,

    I agree. This was my response from a few posts above regarding that statement, when Lou asked me what I thought...

    But then I added...

    Blessings,

    Mike
     
  18. Lou Martuneac

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    D28:

    You wrote,
    You are mis-stating the issue.

    Crossless advocates are fond of citing a "doctrinal quiz" or "checklist." I hope you will not fall into that trap.

    The issue is not scoring on a quiz. The issue is that Crossless advocates insist that the lost do not have to understand or believe anything about who Jesus is (deity) and what He did to provide salvation. The lost man can openly reject the deity of Christ and men like da Rosa say this is a "misconception" that in no way hinders him from being born again. That is their position and the crux of the controversy.

    This is why they, for instance, strip the Lord's titles, "the Christ" and "Son of God" of their deity.

    BTW, are you willing to ask da Rosa the question I suggested. It will reveal to you where the problem lies, if he will answer.

    Did you read Stegall's series, The Tragedy of the "Crossless" Gospel?


    LM
     
  19. D28guy

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    Lou,

    You said...

    Could you share your thoughts regarding something I posted earlier, that you chose not to comment on.

    Here are 2 passages of scripture...

    This is regarding Cornelious and his family. There is no mention whatsoever regarding Jesus dieing on the cross for Cornelius's sins, only that he was executed. And yet we know Cornelius was born again because the Holy Spirit indwelt and sealed them. (they spoke in tongues as evidence)

    Here the jailer is given the promise of eternal life, through faith in Jesus Christ, in spite of the fact that there was no mention whatsoever of the cross, or of Christ dieing for the jailers sins.

    That, in my opinion, is all the GES folks are getting at. At least from what I have read about so far.

    They are not saying that those truths are irelavent, or that they arent important, or that we must never bring them up. Only that salvation is possible for someone who might be struggling with..for example..the idea of Christ being God. If they will respond and trust and embrace Christ, they will be born of the Spirit. Once the Spirit is resident everything will fall into place after that. They will come to know that Jesus is God, and that Christ suffered our death penalty for them, and took their sins upon Himself. All of that will be revealed to them in due time.

    Please share with me how, in the 2 passages of scripture I have shared, that these people were born again of the Spirit, in spite of the absence of information that you say is absolutly necesarry to be legitimatly saved?

    Mike
     
  20. Lou Martuneac

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    Mike/Men:

    The GES position is that while they personally believe the true Jesus Christ, they say a person who only believes "Jesus is the guarantor of everlasting life for all believers" is saved DESPITE any other "blind spots" in their identification of Jesus Christ. They have been very adamant about this.

    In fact, they believe a person who flat-out rejects Christ's deity, death, and resurrection but believes "Jesus" guarantees eternal life is saved. Let me ask a question. If you reject that Jesus is God, that He died for our sins, and rose again, what do you have left? A guy that guarantees everlasting life.

    When they deny you need to believe Christ's deity and say the true Jesus is believed in is properly identified by believing "Jesus is the one who guarantees my eternal life" DESPITE any other "blind spots or misconceptions," that phrase "despite any other blind spots" is like a blank check. You can reject literally anything about Jesus or believe anything about Jesus as long as you believe GES's "saving proposition."


    LM
     
    #20 Lou Martuneac, Mar 24, 2008
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