More questions for Seventh Day Adventists

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by pinoybaptist, Aug 3, 2004.

  1. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    • Who is Ellen G. White ? What was her scholarship background ?
    • Where and how did Ellen G. White get her 'revelations' ?
    • What is Investigative Judgment and how does it relate to the Day of Atonement ?
    • What is the 'remnant church' and how does the SDA church relate to the remnant church ?
    • Does Jesus have older brothers ? Did Ellen G. White teach so ? Do you believe this ? Where is the Scripture for this ?
    • According to the teaching of Ellen G. White, was Jesus a continual irritation to his brothers, or a blessing ? If the former, where is the Scripture ?
    • Was Judas a chosen disciple by Jesus, or did he simply insinuate himself into Jesus' circle ?
    • During the crucifixion, were Jesus' bones broken or not ? What do you SDA's truly teach and believe ?
    • Do you teach, believe, hold, or affirm that Peter led Mary Magdalene into sin ?
    • SDA's claim Ellen G. White is a prophet, so, as a prophet, do her prophecies meet the requirements of Deuteronomy 18:22 ?
    • Before you were baptized, what were taught to you concerning Ellen G. White ? Were you asked to affirm that the Spirit of Prophecy must necessarily be in the remnant church ? And that the spirit of prophecy was in Ellen G. White ?
    • Is your baptism scriptural baptism, that is to say, based only and upon your profession of faith in Christ, as exampled in the Bible ?


      Many more questions to follow. But for the moment, these will suffice.
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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  3. BobRyan

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    • #1. We believe in the 1Cor 12 list of spiritual gifts.. "yes really".

      #2. She was a prophet -- an instance of someone having the gift of prophecy as in 1Cor 14:1.

      Lev 16 spells it out. Heb 8 tells us that Christ is in Heaven as our high priest - fulfilling in reality what the OT types predicted of His priesthood.

      The remnant listed in Rev 12 is "what is left" of the Christian church after the 1260 years of persecution of the saints following the resurrection of Christ.

      Adventists are in that group.

      Joseph had other children -- Mary was not his first wife.

      Jesus tells his brothers "The world hates me - but it can not hate you" speaking of their harmony with it.

      Surely you read the Gospels.

      Christ had to approve of anyone who joined the inner circle of twelve. But Judas had a bit of strategem going on from the start.

      They were not.

      No.

      As a matter of fact.

      The "Spirit of Prophecy" proper is God the Holy Spirit.

      One of the GIFTS of the Spirit is prophecy.

      The spirit of prophecy as used by John in Rev 21-22 is a reference to those with the gift of prophecy.

      I was not baptized in ignorance - but rather as a believer who had actually heard the gospel.

      You seem to have a lot of failed-strawmen - and minor side trails in your crusade here. What is up with that??

      In Christ,

      Bob


      Many more questions to follow. But for the moment, these will suffice.
    • [/QUOTE]
     
  4. Marcia

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    Bob, you sort of skipped over the Investigative Judgment and made it sound Biblical. According to SDA doctrine, in 1844 Jesus entered the sanctuary and is there to examine all believers starting with Adam to see if they are good enough to get into heaven. This is NOT in the Bible. Jesus was supposed to come back in 1844 and when he didn't, the SDA taught that he went into the heavenly sanctuary instead.

    Quote below comes directly from the SDA site:
    They also believe that those who are worshiping on Sunday will get the mark of the Beast when Jesus returns. I read this with my own eyes on the SDA site several times, but they have changed their site recently and taken that off. However, it is still a part of the SDA doctrine.

    SDA also believe in soul sleep and annihilationism. Of course, many who post here believe those 2 things so that will not be disturbing to them. This is one reason I am posting on this forum less and less - I do not have the time and energy to debate fruitlessly.

    Those interested in reading more go to the Baptist Theology and Bible Study Forum here on the BB, to the thread, "Are Seventh Day Adventists A Cult?", starting at page 2 and read from there. There is a lot of info there, including from Russ Kelly who was once an SDA pastor. Here is the link:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/3/2352/2.html?

    Having said all this, I want to point out that while the SDA affirms the major doctrines of Christianity, they also have many extra-biblical and disturbing teachings that make them heterodox, imo.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    hmmph! Imagine that?!!

    Do you recommend that I talk about it while ignoring the Bible from now on?

    There is a "direct quote" if ever I have seen one. And no Bible text too, is that what you are suggesting that I do?

    And I don't think it is a direct quote from anything I have said either. (Coincidence?)

    But here is what we do find. The term "investigate" just refers to the objective act of "opening books and reading the data" --

    Daniel 7 "And the court sat and the books were opened".

    Feel free to debate that idea of "investigate" and "books opened" in a courtroom. That will get "right to the point" of that part of it.

    The next part in Daniel 7 speaks of "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" Vs 21-22.

    Again - that is "The text" speaking - please let me know what part of that you object to.

    Paul makes an interesting statement in 2 Cor 5 saying that "EACH of us must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body - whether they be GOOD or Evil"

    Daniel 7 is simply describing that same thing.

    Amazing how the OT and NT are in "agreement" isn't it?

    Hebrews 8 teaches that Christ went into the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.

    Is this the part you object to?

    Some people object to this as well

    This is something that Adventists take quite seriously.




    That was a good quote Marcia -- thanks.

    However - so far you have not asked any questions.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. BobRyan

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    Currently I enjoy attending my Sabbath keeping Adventist church. I also am attending a Sunday keeping non-denominational (MBI trained pastor) church on Sunday for sunday school and church.

    The Adventist position is that breaking the Sabbath is wrong. It is also that the 10 commandments are "good".

    Is this the part that you object to?

    The SDA doctrine is published on the internet and in book form under the title "27 Fundamental beliefs" -

    I just checked -- "it is still there".

    They must get that from John 11 or 1Thess 4. Are you interested in looking at that?

    Good thing to avoid. How about Bible study?

    That is simply Wrong.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    I didn't see a comment on EGW, but I can tell you that if you do a search on Ellen and her writings, you will see that she plagerized about 50 per cent of her writings from other authors, so she (IMOHO) is a fraud.

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    • Since Bob Ryan will not give a clear, concise answer but simply skirt the issues and give general answers, I am again starting another thread on what Seventh Day Adventists truly, truly, really, teach and believe.

      There will be links to other web pages.

      So, those of you who want to investigate, can link and post if you want.
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    More Seventh Day Adventist erroneous doctrines:

    From

    A Quick Reference Guide To Adventism
     
  10. Kamoroso

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    Those who believe that Christ took upon himself our sinful nature, such as myself, do not believe in any way, that Christ ever sinned. Niether did Ellen White.

    Selected Messages Book 3, page 134, paragraph 1 Chapter Title: The Incarnation

    "Christ was the only one who walked the earth upon whom there rested no taint of sin. He was pure, spotless, and undefiled. That there should be One without the defilement of sin upon the earth, greatly disturbed the author of sin, and he left no means untried to overcome Christ with his wily, deceptive power. But our Saviour relied upon His heavenly Father for wisdom and strength to resist and overcome the tempter. The Spirit of His heavenly Father animated and regulated His life. He was sinless. Virtue and purity characterized His life. (The Youth's Instructor, February, 1873.)

    Selected Messages Book 3, page 134, paragraph 2 Chapter Title: The Incarnation

    Our Fallen Human Nature Connected With Christ's Divinity " Though He had no taint of sin upon His character, yet He condescended to connect our fallen human nature with His divinity. By thus taking humanity, He honored humanity. Having taken our fallen nature, he showed what it might become, by accepting the ample provision He has made for it, and by becoming partaker of the divine nature.(Letter 81, 1896.)

    Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
    17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
    18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

    Heb 4:15-16 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    Heb. 10: 4-7 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sin. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me) to do thy will, O God.

    What is the will of God but that the human flesh, the carnal nature, be sacrificed that the Spirit of God can live and rule in our lives.
    It is Christ who sacrificed His life and paid the penalty for sin, that in Him you might have life and the forgiveness of sins. By faith the Christian accepts his own death in Christ. When Jesus died on the cross He took our sins with Him. It was our sinful nature that was crucified on the cross with Christ.

    Rom 6: 6&7 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin;
    7 for he who has died is free from sin.

    If by faith you accept your death in Christ then you are free from sin, you are justified. In fact all people have already been justified in Christ if they would just care to accept it. For, Christ died for all, therefore all died.( 2Cor. 5:14)

    Rom. 5:18 18 So then through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

    The provisions have already been made, you and I are the sons and daughters of God, for we have been "bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are Gods." and again "Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men." (1 Cor. 6; 20 & 7: 23)

    The whole of the human race were in Christ when He died on the cross, and were justified in Him, if they would just care to accept it. In Romans chapter 5: 12-21 it is clearly pointed out that we all became sinners through or in Adam, in as much as we inherited his sinful nature. On the other hand we all can become righteous through and in Christ by inheriting His divine nature. So we see that we all were in Adam when he sinned and we all were in Christ when He performed the righteous act of the crucifixion. Because of this we all have a choice to make, do I continue to serve self in sin or do I serve Christ through righteousness, beginning with the crucifixion of self by faith in Christ.

    "5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus;
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil. 2: 5-8)

    The way of the cross is the first and continual act of following Christ. It is justification and sanctification for the Christian. This one righteous act by Jesus was but the literal fulfillment of what had been going on spiritually in His life from the beginning. Sacrificing the will of His own human sinful nature in the flesh and allowing God's will to be performed in Him.

    "28 Then said Jesus unto them, when ye have lifted up the son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
    29 And he that sent me is with me: the father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8: 28& 29)

    When Jesus said that he did nothing of himself he must have been referring to his human nature and divine nature for He possessed both. However it was only his human nature that would ever do something other than what God wanted. It was this nature that he crucified continually while here on earth and finally ended all together on the cross. Both Christ's divine and human natures were yielded up on the cross, however only one was never to rise again, and this is salvation. By faith we enter into this experience, crucifying the old man that Christ might live in and through us, creating a new creature (Rom. 6).

    Christ came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it (Matt. 5; 17 & 18), He is the only man that ever fulfilled the law and the only man that ever will. In order for God's law to be fulfilled in us, Christ must be in us, and if Christ is in us, then there is no room for self. Self must be crucified with Christ that Christ might fully dwell within us.

    "20 I am crucified with Christ: never the less I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of god, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    21 I do not frustrate the grace of God; for if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Gal. 2; 20 & 21)

    Those who understand that they have died with Christ, must also understand that they are no longer alive, and if so, someone or something must live in their place. That someone is Christ, for this is God's purpose in our salvation. Not just that our past sins be forgiven but that we might have a new life of righteousness, Christ's righteousness.

    "3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit" (Rom. 8: 3 & 4)

    So then in Christ we are justified, because self is no longer alive and self is what is condemned by the law, and when Christ is in us we are sanctified because Christ is righteous, He is the fulfillment of the law. This is not a one time experience, this is the Christian experience. Paul says "I die daily" (1 Cor. 15: 31) There is no sanctification without justification, and there is no justification without sanctification. For if I am justified in Christ then I am dead, and if I am dead then someone must live in me and that someone must be Christ, unless I am dead indeed. If Christ lives in me then I am sanctified because He is righteous, but if not then I must be alive, and if I am alive then I am not justified for I am condemned by the law being a sinner. Certainly I cannot be sanctified on my own account for I am carnal a slave to sin. So we see that you can not have one without the other.

    The Christian experience is the setting aside of mans desires and purposes, that is those of the flesh, and the fulfillment of God's desires and purposes within you, that is those of the Spirit. This is a continual process.

    Bye for now. Your brother in Christ Keith.
     
  11. John Gilmore

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    Would the SDA Church agree that all the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the very Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion? That he "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he has inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines?
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Adventists teach that the Pope - the Papacy actually (not any single pope) is the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 and is one of the 1John 2 antichrists and is a type of the 2Thess 2 "man of sin".

    However - we believe that the ultimate 2Thess 2 man of sin is Satan and that he WILL increase his presence here on earth in a very significant way near the end of the world.

    Though your expressions and phrases are in some cases close to scripture - I think it would be better to stick with -- we believe "that we are saved by grace through faith and that not of yourselves - it is a gift of God; not as a result of works lest any man should boast.
    For we are His workmanship Created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand that we should Walk In them".
    Eph 2.

    Also we have the text of 1John 2:3-6 speaking of our walk and purpose in Christ.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. John Gilmore

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    BobRyan,

    Is it the adventist view that we are not near the end of the world because the man of sin (Satan) has not yet appeared and/or increased his presence in a very significant way? Is it possible that the final Pope could be Satan?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    Satan will not appear in the form of the Pope according to Adventist views of 2Thess 2 - rather he will pretend to be Christ - in a fake 2nd coming.

    Adventism teaches that the Rev 19 and 20 event is the end of the world and 2nd coming of Christ where the 1Thess 4 resurrection "The FIRST resurrection" takes place.

    This means that the 2Thess 2 event must take place and the Rev 16 plagues must take place immediately preceeding that Rev 19-20 "event".

    We believe we are living at the end of time - in the last days.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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