More Than a Few Questions for Baptists

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber
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    Are there any Baptists on this board who think they can answer every one of these?


    1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?

    2) The Koran explicitly claims divine inspiration, but the New Testament books do not. How do you know that the New Testament books are nevertheless inspired, but the Koran is not?

    3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based on a book?

    4) Protestants claim that Jesus categorically condemned all oral tradition (Matt 15:3, 6; Mark 7:8?13). If so, why does He bind His listeners to oral tradition by telling them that to obey the scribes and Pharisees when they "sit on Moses' seat" (Matt 23:2)?

    5) Protestants claim that St. Paul categorically condemned all oral tradition (Col 2:8). If so, why does he tell the Thessalonians to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thes 2:15) and praises the Corinthians because they "hold firmly to the traditions" (1 Cor 11:2)?

    6) If the authors of the New Testament believed in sola Scriptura, why did they sometimes draw on oral Tradition as authoritative and as God's Word (Matt 2:23; 23:2; 1 Cor 10:4; 1 Pet 3:19; Jude 9, 14 15)?

    7) Where in the Bible is God's Word restricted only to what is written down?

    8) How do we know who wrote the books that we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Hebrews, and 1, 2, and 3 John?

    9) On what authority, or on what principle, would we accept as Scripture books that we know were not written by one of the twelve apostles?

    10) Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?

    11) How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the individual books of the New Testament are inspired, even when they make no claim to be inspired?

    12) How do we know, from the Bible alone, that the letters of St. Paul, who wrote to first-century congregations and individuals, are meant to be read by us 2000 years later as Scripture?

    13) Where does the Bible claim to be the sole authority for Christians in matters of faith and morals?

    14) Most of the books of the New Testament were written to address very specific problems in the early Church, and none of them are a systematic presentation of Christian faith and theology. On what biblical basis do Protestants think that everything that the apostles taught is captured in the New Testament writings?

    15) If the books of the New Testament are "self-authenticating" through the ministry of the Holy Spirit to each individual then why was there confusion in the early Church over which books were inspired, with some books being rejected by the majority?

    16) If the meaning of the Bible is so clear, so easily interpreted, and if the Holy Spirit leads every Christian to interpret it rightly, then why are there over 23,000 Protestant denominations, and millions of individual Protestants, all interpreting the Bible differently?

    17) Who may authoritatively arbitrate between Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into mutually contradictory interpretations of the Bible?

    18) Since each Protestant must admit that his or her interpretation is fallible, how can any Protestant in good conscience call anything heresy or bind another Christian to a particular belief?

    19) Protestants usually claim that they all agree "on the important things." Who is able to decide authoritatively what is important in the Christian faith and what is not?

    20) How did the early Church evangelize and overthrow the Roman Empire, survive and prosper almost 350 years, without knowing for sure which books belong in the canon of Scripture?

    21) Who in the Church had the authority to determine which books belonged in the New Testament canon and to make this decision binding on all Christians? If nobody has this authority, then can I remove or add books to the canon on my own authority?

    22) Why do Protestant scholars recognize the early Church councils at Hippo and Carthage as the first instances in which the New Testament canon was officially ratified, but ignore the fact that those same councils ratified the Old Testament canon used by the Catholic Church today but abandoned by Protestants at the Reformation?

    23) Why do Protestants follow post-apostolic Jewish decisions on the boundaries of the Old Testament canon, rather than the decision of the Church founded by Jesus Christ?

    24) How were the bishops at Hippo and Carthage able to determine the correct canon of Scripture, in spite of the fact that they believed all the distinctively Catholic doctrines such as the apostolic succession of bishops, the sacrifice of the Mass, Christ's Real Presence in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, etc?

    25) If Christianity is a "book religion," how did it flourish during the first 1500 years of Church history when the vast majority of people were illiterate?

    26) How could the Apostle Thomas establish the church in India that survives to this day (and is now in communion with the Catholic Church) without leaving them with one word of New Testament Scripture?

    27) If sola Scriptura is so solid and biblically based, why has there never been a full treatise written in its defense since the phrase was coined in the Reformation?

    28) If Jesus intended for Christianity to be exclusively a "religion of the book," why did He wait 1400 years before showing somebody how to build a printing press?

    29) If the early Church believed in sola Scriptura, why do the creeds of the early Church always say "we believe in the Holy Catholic Church," and not "we believe in Holy Scripture"?

    30) If the Bible is as clear as Martin Luther claimed, why was he the first one to interpret it the way he did and why was he frustrated at the end of his life that "there are now as many doctrines as there are heads"?

    31) The time interval between the Resurrection and the establishment of the New Testament canon in AD 382 is roughly the same as the interval between the arrival of the Mayflower in America and the present day. Therefore, since the early Christians had no defined New Testament for almost four hundred years, how did they practice sola Scriptura?

    32) If the Bible is the only foundation and basis of Christian truth, why does the Bible itself say that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15)?

    33) Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God (John 17:20-23). How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers?

    34) If the unity of Christians was meant to convince the world that Jesus was sent by God, what does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world?

    35) Hebrews 13:17 says, "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you." What is the expiration date of this verse? When did it become okay not only to disobey the Church's leaders, but to rebel against them and set up rival churches?
     
  2. Taufgesinnter

    Taufgesinnter
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    Nice cut and paste. Now to avoid charges of plagiarism, would you mind posting your source please? This material might even be copyrighted. I've seen this list, word for word it seems, on another board. So either they plagiarized what you wrote, or you didn't write this.

    We can perhaps go on from there after you comply.

    Say hi to the Franciscans, and stay tuned to channel 9.
     
  3. Stephen III

    Stephen III
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    Here are a few more "traditions of men" , added and developed and well accepted in many circles but that are not to be found in the bible.

    Or perhaps someone could show me where to find the following words, concepts and or practices:

    1.) "age of accountability"
    2.) "total depravity of man"
    3.) "ask Jesus into your heart" (where's this emphasized)
    4.) the "Rapture"
    5.) "clothed in the righteousness of Christ"
    6.)"invisible church"
    7.)emphasis on a "personal relationship with Christ"
    8.)"accepting Christ as personal Lord and Savior"
    9.) "enthroning the Bible in your heart"
    10) limited atonement
    11.) "altar call"
    12.) rededication
    13.) tent revivals
    14.) the Christian Flag
    15.) Sunday school
    16.) denominations
    17.) "folding hands" to pray
    18.) faith alone
    19.) sola scriptura
    20.) missionaries
    21.) Baptism and the Eucharist as mere symbols

    (and for those who may wish to dodge the topics by making false claims of plagiarism, the precedeing list was paraphrased from the book- Crossing the Tiber Evangelical Protestants Discover the Historical Church p. 43 by Stephen K. Ray, published by Ignatius Press)
     
  4. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Taufgesinnter is correct, Carson. Please see on the posting rule page:

    and in the announcements forum:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000186

    I found the article here: http://www.catholicoutlook.com/questions.html

    Nothing false about the claim at all, Stephen. We hold everyone on the site to the same standard.

    Clint Kritzer
    Moderator
     
  5. WPutnam

    WPutnam
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    Clint,

    I have the easy solution for all this:

    Carson wanted to post this, rather then use a link, I think, as it would result in a greater response. (Links have a tendency to get ignored.)

    So, all Carson had to do was quote the source of where he got the material, which I now suggest we all do. I do this myself, sometimes, forgeting to give the source of the material.

    Easy enough for everybody here........?

    God bless,

    PAX

    Bill+†+


    Forgive us Lord,
    when in longing to defend what is right,
    when in trying to support the truth
    we do what is hurtful and mean,
    forgetting to take out
    whatever logs are in our own eyes
    to take the speck out of the eye of our fellows,
    forgetting to work all things in love.

    Lord, forgive us
    when hurt by our fellow man,
    we complain, and strike back.

    Heal us Lord,
    and give us strength to offer you
    our hurts and sadnesses,
    to offer you the pain of being corrected,
    rather rightly or not.

    If it is our job to correct,
    help us learn to do it in ways that heal,
    not hurt,

    And whatever we do in your name,
    may we always do it for your glory,
    without hate, anger,
    or the taint of self-righteousness.

    May we learn to be quiet
    in our longing and respect for you,
    rather than speak words
    that would drive any away from you,
    or harm those who love you.

    And when we speak,
    may it always be guided by the Holy Spirit.

    Amen.
     
  6. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    First of all, I don't think (nor can it be proven) that Carson intended to say that this was original to him. Yes, he should have posted a link, although the link that has been provided by Clint is not a word-for-word copy, so even that is not the correct "complete" source.

    Hopefully, Carson will provide the source.

    Now, I think it'd be neat if people could answer the questions.
     
  7. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    That is the requirement, Bill. You are correct.

    Even the Fair Use clause of Title 17 and public domain status of an article does not negate citing the source for any intellectual property, even if it is only attributed to that well known, prolific writer, "Anonymous."
     
  8. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Clint,

    I'll only say this once, because I do not wish to derail the topic further than it already has...

    WHY ARE YOU NOT THIS DILIGENT WHEN A NON-CATHOLIC POSTS ANTI-CATHOLIC MATERIAL THAT IS COPYRIGHTED?

    It happens all the time. Lists, the "cyanide" joke that is repeatedly posted, and several times by hit-and-run posters (massdak rings a bel). Even a few days ago I had to call Homebound on something he took from jesus-is-lord.com - I never saw you peak your head in and repremand.

    Why the partiality? Feel free to respond in private.
     
  9. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Folks have been doing that ever since the list was first compiled.

    http://www.russ.org/new2/question.html

    Neat, huh? [​IMG]
     
  10. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Please report these posts to me. This is not a matter of theology but of legal protection of this site.
     
  11. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Clint,

    Always good to pass it on to someone else instead of doing the dirty work yourself.

    I especially loved this one:

    3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based on a book?

    Where did the Apostles say to follow a Polish Pope?


    Answering a question with a question? PUH-LEASE. If that's the kind of responses you are calling "answers," then I'm dumbfounded.
     
  12. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Please report these posts to me. This is not a matter of theology but of legal protection of this site. </font>[/QUOTE]Alright, brother. [​IMG] I'm going to hold you to that!!!! [​IMG]
     
  13. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Grant, I'm kind of busy to go through the list of questions myself. I merely stepped into the thread to cite the violation. I just happened to see that link when I did the search for the source to confirm that it was not original work.

    The original post is only 3 hours old. Give folks some time to read it, research it, and respond.

    BTW, here's a Baptist thread I had to correct as well so that you will rest assured that I am at least attempting to maintain impartial moderation on this matter:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=003319#000014

    Remarkably, I almost always get an argument about it. :rolleyes:
     
  14. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Brother Clint,

    I apologize if I was overly harsh or judgmental. I simply know that most offenses on the non-Catholic end don't seem to get too much trouble from the moderators, sometimes even if I report it (which I find is not usually necessary, except when they grossly destroy the original work to suit their needs, which HAS happened from time to time), and this one was jumped on in a flash.

    By the way, what about the link you provided me with? [​IMG] The question with a question? Many other answers of his are equally vague or evasive.

    Pick one or two of them, and answer them openly and honestly. Surely you have time for one or two of them!
     
  15. Clint Kritzer

    Clint Kritzer
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    Well, okay.

    For the one you cited:
    3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based on a book?


    2 Timothy 3
    14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.


    BTW, no need to apologize.
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    I would suggest selecting a question from the grocery list and make it a topic. And open it for all Protestant denominations, for actually FEW Baptists even come by this forum; most opt to stay in the Baptist-only sections of the BB.
     
  17. Elk

    Elk
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    Dear Carson Weber,
    Greetings.
    One thing that puzzles me about the various questions that pertain to the Word of God...is that after much study into the Catholic faith, I found that they have always believed that the Word we have today has always been inspired. The view is that there was really none of this "selecting" that apparently we feel today had occurred, but the Scriptures were always obvious and clear which ones were truly inspired.

    I believe I can answer everyone of those questions that you asked, no matter where they came from, but I do believe I know where you are coming from and what you are trying to get us to consider.

    Yes, it is true that we have thousands upon thousands of Christian denominations world wide, and worse often resulting from arguments and splits and unreconcilation, but one thing does seem to be obvious to me, in that day of persecution when Christians will be handed over to be slaughtered or even now when those are martyred throughout the world, it does not matter what denomination they ascribe to, they are martyred because they believe in Jesus.
    Thereby, they are Christians and the non-believers call them such.

    Pertaining to Luther...one needs to ask...was what he did a move of God? What does the Bible say to do? To check the fruit.
    Was it good fruit?
    Why did Luther do what he did at that time?
    Wasn't he protesting the funding of crusades by the church telling their people that they can pay to get out of purgatory faster...whereby these monies funded the crusades?

    I have a couple of main complaints about the Catholic church.
    1. How can a church declare a marriage valid or not, if the couple made vows to God? For the Bible says to keep your vows to your own hurt.
    2. How can a Priest forgive sins and tell the confessor to do this or that and be forgiven?
    The Bible is clear that only God can forgive sins, and Jesus said not to call anyone Father (of course, we all know that that means to call someone Father in the light of being the Father of all...which is what people would be doing if we asked the Priest to forgive our sins.

    I have some other questions for you...
    I have often heard that when people pray to Mary for intercession, that she always points to Jesus. Why does it occur then the next day, that they are still praying to Mary for intercession?
    Do not get me wrong, I believe strongly about Communion (the Eucharist) in that the Bible does not say anywhere that it is a "symbolic" act, but why if this is the most important focus of the Catholic church, why is it closed to only members? I don't believe Jesus would ever turn anyone away that came to HIM. Furthermore, why does it seem that there is something wrong when one has to come to church to be with God? It seems that the Eucharist is made into something more than what it ever was meant to be...but please yet again do not misunderstand me...I am not against it, but my complaint is the denying of it to anyone who is not a Catholic and signed up, and to the fact that it seems that if one is not getting communion frequently, he/she no longer has God inside of them. When I examine the teaching of the Eucharist, this is what I have noticed show up in the view of the Eucharist. Thereby, the focus is more on communion than on the Holy Spirit living inside of us.

    Finally, I already know what you are going to say in answer, but what about the very prophecy of Mary from Fatima...where She told them that a bad Pope was coming. Should Christians continue and be a part of that?

    And yes, I believe that there were many Saints that have gone on before that are never discussed in Protestant movements because they lived before the 1500's, but we are so very blessed because of them.
    There are many things that are good about the Catholic church, and I even know one in town that has their church door open for prayer all day long. And that is just one thing.
    And the Vatican literally has a warehouse of documents and basically a history of the Christian church, probably unparalleled to anything else existing.

    But you know what? I was just thinking about a conversation that I had with a Priest on a Catholic board who was very upset when I told him that on the Catholic channel a man discovered that when Jesus told John on the cross, Behold your Mother, and visa versa...that John's mother was also there at the site of the crucifixion (it states that in Matthew). This Priest absolutely denied it, and said that she was not. I did not understand the problem, and actually I thought that that was pretty amazing and supported a key focal point of Scripture that Catholics enjoy. But in this term of studying and conversing, I discovered that some Catholics do not really rely on Scripture as Truth.

    That is very unstable, and I know that is an understatement.
    When everything is said and done, I believe that it is important to the Christian to believe God and listen to His Voice and obey His Voice, and in times of persecution be able to stand even without a Bible or a rosary.
    Would he/she be able? This is where you know it is all about the heart, and God wants our heart.

    It is all about our relationship with God/Jesus.
    Our doctrinal knowledge will not save us, only Jesus saves us.
    We are all on different walks in life, have different thoughts, different levels, etc., but it is that "trust" element and "believing" element that the Lord Jesus will bring us there is what it is all about...and so many blessed things that HE does, and gives us a heart of flesh, love that is all from Him.

    So, who are the real disciples of Jesus?
    Those that love.
    Jesus gave us the Two Commandments to follow.
     
  18. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    Hopefully you don't mind me coming up to bat! [​IMG] By the way, I appreciate the kindness and sincerety of your post. Thank you!

    I'm not sure where you get this idea. Yes, some, if not many, of the books were always/almost always included on various people's lists, but others were clearly NOT OBVIOUS AT ALL. History clearly reveals this.

    It is true that there will be many people from various denominations in Heaven because of their faith in Jesus Christ, but that in no way means that we should not continue to strive towards Christian unity until the Lord comes again.

    Luther's views had nothing to do with the crusades, but with the building of St. Peter's Bascillica in Rome (that was what the indulgence money was going to). The crusades were before his time (unless I am totally mistaken). I believe that he certainly had good fruit IN THE BEGINNING, but as (sadly) officials in Rome rejected the needed house cleaning (and him), his views became ultra radical and he left the idea of reform for revolution.

    I assume you are speaking of the annulment process? I could not satisfactorly answer this in a few sentences; I recommend messaging me privately or starting a new thread. For now, though, the Church conducts LENGTHY and IN-DEPTH reviews of the marriages. I'm pretty familiar for the process because our parish priest is one who does this for the diocese, and he's walked through the process with me. By the time a decision is made, it is clear whether or not man or woman gave themself fully in their marriage vows or not.

    Priests do not forgive sins. Priests pronounce the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Further, penance that is given the confessor does not at all forgive the sins. Penance comes after absolution, and its function is to aid the newly forgiven child of God something to begin his fresh walk with God (usually a devotional prayer). Penance has no bearing on absolution.

    Actually, in the Gospel of John, he precisely said that all power in Heaven and on earth had been given to Him, and immediately he told the disciples that "Whosever sins you forgiven, they are forgiven. Whosever sins you retain, they are retained."

    No, that is not what is happening. The title "father" that is given to priests is no different than calling them "pastor," which means "shepard." And we know that Jesus Christ is our shepard, no? But Jesus told Peter to "feed his sheep." Obviously, God calls men to be shepards in His stead, to lead the faithful to Him. This is similar to Paul referring to himself in his letters as their spiritual father, and they his children.

    And, again, the priest does not forgive sins.

    When you develop a relationship with Jesus because your parents bring you to know Him, do you stop having a relationship with your parents? Or your pastor? Or your faith community? No. These people serve as continual pointers to Jesus Christ so that you may be continually renewed in Him. It is the same for Mary.

    Because we DO believe that Jesus Christ is ACTUALLY present in the Eucharist, and Scripture says that we should not receive the Body and Blood of Christ unworthily - unbelief in His presence seems to fit that bill. Not only that, but from the earliest Christians, it is clear that communion also entails a statement of belief, a confession of faith. If you receive communion with Catholics, you are are saying to the world, "Hey, I'm Catholic." Unless you want to give that message, why would you receive communion with a Catholic?

    But unless you believe He is actually there, are you actively RECEVIVING HIM?

    This is not the case at all. However, which is a more fullness of union with Jesus Christ? In prayer now (for instance), or when you are in Heaven viewing the beatific vision of God? Obviously, the latter. Jesus Christ is ACTUALLY present in the Sacrament, and it is a closer communion with Him, something no Christian should wish to pass up, when Jesus Christ Himself instituted it for our own benefit!

    This is a private revelation. It has no bearing on the faith of the individual Christian to believe in this or not, although if it strengthens their faith in the Lord Jesus, there is nothing wrong with it, either.

    Most do this (or should do this). What's even better is 24-hour Eucharistic Adoration. [​IMG]

    Catholics are human beings (*gasp*) and some do not follow the teachings of the Church (sadly) and some do not read the Scriptures (sadly). But that is a human problem, not a Catholic-only problem

    Peace in Christ,

    Grant
     
  19. Elk

    Elk
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    Dear Grant,
    Thank you for your message.
    I want to say that the things that I mentioned are my complaints and they are very valid. Ones that cannot be flippant about. I believe you are mistaken about some of your responses. For example, the marriage one, and the forgiveness of sins by the Priest. These are issues that are very valid and troublesome. A primary focus on any Catholic forum addresses annulments and marriage as a primary discussion. It certainly seems to be the case if one person left the Catholic church and married a bunch of times, had a bunch of kids, then decided to abandon all and go back to the Catholic church and get married to a Catholic, this new marriage would be considered valid while the others would be considered invalid. This is a mockery, especially if "annulment" was applied to the previous marriages.
    Regarding absolution of sins. No matter how you word it, it is still the priest deciding that an individual's sins are forgiven or not. I have a great problem with that, but even more the followup of "works" that come after.
    Can our own efforts ever patch up our sins that we committed? I don't think so.

    Please do not misunderstand me. I presented issues that I have trouble with. There are many astounding and wonderful things that I have experienced along the way in my quest that the Lord put me on. Yes, I have seen that Ohio tape with the miracle at that church with the Lady of Lights. I have seen on EWTN that half hour show that actually shows statues bleeding, even the ones of Jesus. Drops of blood, drops of oil, etc. Even that bust of Jesus that dripped actual blood that was even x-rayed and shown that there was nothing inside this ceramic. I have seen those pictures (Sallman classic pictures) dripping tears from the eyes of a poster on camera! I have smelled roses myself.

    I must continue this later.
    God bless you!
     
  20. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves
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    We'll see about that.

    About marriage and confession? No, I was presenting Catholic teaching.

    If you are telling me that what I said was not what the Church teaches, you are incorrect, friend.

    This would never happen. Christian marriages are valid in the eyes of the Church, and any Protestant who is married and divorces could not remarry in the Catholic Church, unless he or she received an annulment. Even then, if the man was not holding to his legal (and moral) responsibilities to his children, no sane priest would allow him to marry anyway (annulment or not). If you have seen this happen, that is one thing; however, if it HAS happened, that is NOT how it should be occuring, and priests who allow it to happen endanger their own souls be allowing/promoting such tripe. If you made it up, then you made it up; it's not Church teaching.

    False. If a person confesses and is penitent, the priest MUST pronounce absolution. He can only withhold it if the penitent is NOT penitent. The priest does not decide if sins are forgiven or not, and if a priest refused absolution when a person has contrition, I would promptly report him to the bishop and go (or have the person go) to a proper priest for confession.

    You are willfully twisting my words to continue to say we do otherwise, because we do not.

    Brother, it is clear that you are not listening to my responses. When did I say anything about patching our sins up? ABSOLUTION IS JUST THAT: ABSOLVING OF SINS. The sin does not remain any more - AT ALL. Penance is to set the forgiven person on a path of renewal in praise and thanksgiving to God for receiving said forgiveness. It occurs AFTER FORGIVENESS, NOT BEFORE IT.

    Then listen to my responses honestly. It is apparent that you skimmed or did not trust me in my responses, as your response contradicts what I have stated about our teachings.

    And may Christ richly bless your faith journey,

    Grant
     

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