Moses and Elijah, Assumed

Carson writes

For someone to be assumed into heaven, they must not "not die".

Carson also writes

If Moses was assumed into heaven, it most certainly occurred after his death and burial: events which do not prevent his further assumption.

My bad - I missed the part where he said "they must not NOT die" - two "nots" make a "bow"?

The Catholic speculation about the "assumption of Mary" and the book that Jude quotes "the Assumptin of Moses" both consider that the person "assumed into heaven" - dies and then is bodily raised and taken to heaven.

But the Catholic speculation is based on musing that occurs centuries after the supposed fact - not on NT witnesses as in the case of Christ dying and then being raised and taken to heaven.

"And you would think" that the all-important treatment of Mary by Catholics WOULD suffice to get her "honorable mention" as being taken to heaven in the NT - IF it has been true.

INSTEAD we see the raising to life of Lazarus, Dorcas, and a child -- and of course of Christ but the NT (according to our Catholic bretheren) entirely MISSES the raising to Life of MARY AND her being bodily assumed into heaven.

Fascinating "belief in spite of scripture" model being used there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It would be interesting to see some other non-Catholic views on this point as well.

It is clear that the Catholic position is that ONCE you view either Moses or Elijah as still being dead - the door is open for prayers to the dead based on the Mt of Transfiguration.

It is also clear that the "Case for Mary" being assumed into heaven does not rest alone on the fact that Moses was taken to heaven according to the book that Jude quotes "the Assumption of Moses". Rather it is argued solely on the basis that "Mary was sinless like Christ so she must not remain to decay in the ground - just as Christ did not suffer that indignity".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I wouldn't dare declare my theory as biblical truth, just an idea.

 

First of all - the Rev 11 text does not say that they "Came down out of heaven and began preaching". The two witnesses were here for the entire 1260 year period of time described in Rev 11.

Second - Heb 11 says that Enoch "did not die" affirming what we find in Genesis 5 - that God took him.

My main point regarding the Matt 17 incident with Moses and Elijah - was that Jude 7-8 prevents this from being seen as a conjuring of the dead - since Moses is not dead according to the book "The Assumption of Moses" quoted by Jude and Elijah was taken to heaven while living - according to 2Kings 2.

Our RC bretheren have attempted to use Matt 17 a number of times to defend contact with the dead whom the Bible calls "The Dead in Christ" in 1Thess4.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thanx, Bob. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about these prophets in Rev, but I do know something about dead people. They can't help you, or me. Learned that in the Navy.

 

All Men Die...including Moses and Elijah...
they were men and served as Gods messengers in their lifetime..they got old..they died.

the two witnesses in Revelation are symbolic..

they are God's witnesses:

"Wisdom and Understanding"

 

Elijah did not die according to 2Kings 2- God took him directly to heaven without his dying.

Moses DID die according to the book of Deuteronomy - but when Jude quotes the book "The Assumption of Moses" in Jude 7-8 it opens a door to Moses being alive once again centuries later.
(though in heaven).

And of course Genesis 5 and Heb 11 make it clear that Enoch did not die.

The "reason" for pointing this out - is that it REMOVES the ability of "some" to claim that the visit of Elijah and Moses in Matt 17 is a case of conjuring the dead and gives Christians the "licsense" to "go and do likewise".

But when we discover that Moses and Elijah were actually "living" in heaven at that time - and not "the DEAD in Christ" - it changes the picture.

So we are back to "no praying to the dead" and "no conjuring the dead" - and we see that there is NO Bible basis for doing so that can be drawn from Matt 17 since - these guys were not "the DEAD in Christ".

In Christ,

Bob