Moses' disobedience

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by TaterTot, Mar 31, 2007.

  1. TaterTot

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    I have been curious after reading the account of Moses' disobedience in striking the rock out of his anger in Numbers 20. He crossed that line of disobedience with God and paid a severe price. How does that apply to us? Where is that line of disobedience? Scary thought...
     
  2. bapmom

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    Id say it applies to us in that it shows that we can choose to enter the victorious Christian life or not. So many equate the "Promised Land" with heaven, but from what I can tell it would really represent the victory we can see in our Christian life if we let God win.

    Im not sure if Im being real clear here............sorry :) its getting too late for me.
     
  3. TaterTot

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    YEah, I agree that the Promised Land can mean more than heaven. I just wonder at what point does God take away your entrance into that place? (I know its not about eternal security)
     
  4. bapmom

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    oooh, I just had a thought :type:

    now, when this happened Moses was the leader. So in essence God was taking him from his leadership position and perhaps as the leader he was being held to a higher degree of accountability. BUT that would translate to us in various areas of our lives in various ways. As moms we have a responsibility to train our kids right, but if we continually mess up, letting sin reign in our homes, it will eventually have a pretty permanent affect on our leadership position - creating resentment and anger in our kids, and endangering our relationship with them sometimes.

    Same goes with our responsibilities in our churches.........if we continue to willfully go our own way there could be serious permanent repercussions. I don't think there's one line though that would fit all scenarios, I would imagine it would be a very individual and personal thing. I think God would make it clear to us where that line is for our own self with Him.
     
  5. PastorSBC1303

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    Obviously at times we can all cross the line of disobedience with the Lord, just as Moses did. Yet I think we have be careful in drawing strict lines based upon this text to apply over to our lives. I am not sure we can put God in a box and say that we know how He will respond to us in different situations. We also have to take in consideration what the Lord says in Deuteronomy as well, "It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going to take possession of their land...Understand, then that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people" (Deut. 9:5-6).

    Yes, we are to obey, and Moses situations speaks clearly to that and sets a powerful example and motivation for us to obey. Yet, if God only blessed us in our times of obedience, we would not have nearly as much blessing in our lives as we do. God blesses in spite of us at times, as we are all stiff-necked people.
     
  6. TaterTot

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    neat thoughts...
     
  7. Jon-Marc

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    While I have always believed that we cannot lose our salvation, I still can't help but wonder that if after all that Moses did in getting God's people out of Egypt and still was not allowed in the promsied land because of one burst of anger, Where does that leave us? What would we have to do for God to reject us as He apparantly did Moses? At least that's the way it looks to me. Having grown up with a dad who could never be satisfied and only criticised, belittled, and destroyed any chance I had of having any self-esteem, I find it impossible to believe in a father's love anyway. To this day I have never felt worthy of being loved thanks to him.
     
  8. TaterTot

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    Goodness. I am sorry you had that experience. No one deserves that. I hate when people call God "Daddy" b/c so many people cannot understand a loving father and equate that with a loving God.

    But I undertand your thoughts about wondering about us. Moses was very special, yet he crossed a line. Just makes me wonder where that line is for us. What are we missing out on? Just scares me.
     
  9. Amy.G

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    Tradition has it, I believe, that God Himself buried Moses. God called Moses His 'friend'. Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus at His transfiguration.

    God did not reject Moses, only punished him.
     
  10. TaterTot

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    This is true, but what a punishment. Moses works for 40 years at a goal, then cant see it to fruition. Thats a pretty steep punishment.
     
  11. Amy.G

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    Yes, it was. I really have never read an explanation for such a harsh punishment either. I guess we'll have to put that one on the list of many things to ask God someday. :)
     
  12. npetreley

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    I don't think it has anything to do with our obedience. I think the lesson is symbolic.

    The first time Moses struck the rock, it was symbolic of Christ being crucified, from which flows living water.

    Once Christ is crucified, however, one only need to speak to the Rock for the living water. Striking it again would be symbolic of crucifying Christ a second time. That's why the offense was so serious, in my opinion.

    Personally, I think God had planned all along for Moses to disobey and strike the rock and then punish him in order to draw attention to the importance of the symbolic lesson that Christ is crucified ONCE for all. I can think of no other explanation as to why the punishment was so severe for such a relatively simple "crime".
     
  13. Allan

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    Simple crime??

    When is direct disobedience to God's explicite words, defined as a simple crime.
    It cast Adam and Eve into sin (seperation) and removal from the Garden.

    It caused man to be seperated in color and language making them (again) to be seperated but from each other this time.

    It brought forth the flood that killed the world, for scripture calls Noah a preacher of righeousness. And God seperated those who would not hear from those who would.

    It kept Moses from the Promised Land and seperated him from Gods promise.

    It seperated Israel from their position as Gods elect people who walk in the blessing and provisions of their God.

    And so on and so forth. Rebellion to Gods express commands always brings forth seperation and is in no sense a 'simple crime'. Is a little lie worthy of eternal damnation, or a momentary lustful thought? Yes they are.

    For the wages of Sin (singular) is death (seperation), but the gift of God is eternal life (union).

    This can be phyical (which most of my example were) but can be also spiritual.
     
    #13 Allan, Apr 2, 2007
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  14. Allan

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    Not really.

    When you understand, that though Moses was considered a man of faith, he did not have the faith necessar to continue and would be needed there in the Promised Land. Like say - Joshua. Who took everything God said at face value and obeyed, even to the taking of the Land God promised them.

    Moses struggled continually with the people and at times with his own faith internally. We see this physically played out in the striking of the stone that God specifically told him to simply speak to the rock.

    Now we know the rock was symobolic of Jesus our life spring or river of living water. And that speaking to the rock was synonmous with calling out to God for the provision He had already provided (Jesus/Rock) and it would burst forth with all the life sustaining water you would ever need. But Moses lacked faith in God on this, like many people do in relation to Christs and him being the provision of God just waiting on thirsting soul to call out to God for his saving power/water.
    But Moses did not trust God enough to have done it all and to open life to the people at his request. He felt he needed to "DO" (works) something of himself to assure this precious life. AND THAT was the afront to God. Than man could "DO" something (works) to assure his life in/with God. He did not (as we do not) trust God to act with life saving power on their calling out to God for the His provision He has established, but they by some physical means must present themselves somehow worthy. And Moses struck the rock twice showing clearly that he didn't believe God but just as bad he struck it as though it was 'he' who brought forth the water, instead of God being the set apart as their sustainer and provider. Did Moses not say "...must WE bring forth water from the rock." Where was God in this picture before the congregation of Jews?

    God promised and had Provided, but Moses didn't take God at His word on this and Trust or believe it. Therefore, like the others Jews who wandered 40 years for THEIR lack of belief/faith in Gods deliverance through HIS own hand and not theirs, Moses also did not enter the promised land.

    Now just to clarify something. It is only a shadow of things yet future and about salvation. But about obtaining the promise God gave to his people about overcoming by the provisions and blessings of God. They were not disqualified from salvation for Hebrews 11 tells us a different story, but they were (Israel) to be an example to us (NT believers) to walk in faith, hope, and Love. But the greatest of these is Love, and love casts out all fear. :thumbs:
     
    #14 Allan, Apr 2, 2007
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  15. npetreley

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    Wow, overreact much?

    If a single act of disobedience disqualified anyone from entering the promised land, nobody would have had permission to go. There was obviously something unique about THIS particular act of disobedience.
     
  16. James_Newman

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    Moses not entering the promised land is a picture of disobedient Christians not entering the millennial kingdom of God. Moses was not the only one forbidden to enter the land, as an entire generation was excluded with the exception of Caleb and Joshua. Moses should probably serve particularly as a warning to pastors.
    James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
     
  17. christianyouth

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    In Deut. 11 , Moses reassambles the people and states that pretty much if the Israelites obeyed, they will be blessed. That is, if they are obedient, they will have good crops, no pestilence, ect. Then he says that if they disobey, they will be subjected to all types of judgements.

    Deut. 11:26-28 (esv) "See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you today, and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way that I am commanding you today, to go after other gods that you have not known."

    I've been only studying the Bible for about a year, but from my understanding of God and His ways, it seems like the degree of our blessings is directly related to our obedience. Further, in the book of Joshua, as the people of Israel were getting ready to start the conquest for Canaan, God visits Joshua and gives him a promise. God says to Joshua, (v8,ESV) "This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it."

    One of the greatest incentives for me to be obedient, is the blessings that God gives me. You may think that that motivation is wrong, kind of utilitiarian, but if we think about all Christians have that motivation to some extent. When I obey, I can bet that I will be blessed, maybe not with physical blessings, but with spiritual blessings, the kind that permeates Paul's letter to the Philippians.

    And personal experience has cemented this into my mind. When I am obedient, I have peace,love, joy, ect.. When I am disobedient, I am miserable.

    So, let me recapitulate; The entire Bible is filled with verses that contain necessary conditions, like do A and B will result, and obedience and blessings is like that.

    I may be wrong.

    - Andy
     
  18. npetreley

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    Deuteronomy is talking about earthly blessings. If that's what you're talking about (and that IS the context) then the Bible doesn't teach that the degree of our earthly blessings is directly related to our obedience. Indeed, it teaches by example that, in some cases, the more obedient we are, the more we will be persecuted -- and should rejoice because we're storing up treasure in heaven, not earth.

    I don't think Paul being stoned and left for dead, or Peter being crucified upside down (not Biblically recorded, but historically noted) would come under the category of "earthly blessings". ;) Yet I'm willing to bet that they were far more obedient than I'll ever be.

    Like I said (I think in a different thread), you have to take Deuteronomy 30 (which sums up the obedience/disobedience/blessing/curse deal) in the context of 28, 29 -- at the very least. And you also have to take into account the way God put the "offer". "19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing" And then God tells them to choose life, and why. But the preceding quote should tell you something about the ulterior purpose of this offer.
     
    #18 npetreley, Apr 2, 2007
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  19. Allan

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    So you contend that God over reacted with Adam and Eve.

    How about the people who disobeyed His command to fill the earth and God seperated them in color and language?

    How about Noah preaching and the people not obeying by repenting?

    How about the children of Israel who were about to go into the promised land when the spies came back and the majority said "B-B-B-Big G-G-G-Giants over there" and the people for their unbelief THERE were not permitted into the promised land? Even though UP TILL THEN they did not act in belief many times and yet were still going to go into the promised land until they didn't believe His promise that they will take the Land by His power.

    Or when Moses JUST LIKE the Children of Israel acted in UNBELIEF and was fobidden JUST AS THEY WERE for unbelief in Gods specific promise, to not enter the promised land?

    It goes on and one. Is God unrighteous to require we take His word at face value and act upon it or suffer the consiquences? God forbid. One sin always equals seperation or death.
     
  20. Jon-Marc

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    My understanding (which is limited) is that the Rock represented Christ. Hitting it the first time represented Christ being beaten for us. After that Moses was told to just speak to the Rock, and it would bring forth water. Out of anger he hit the Rock the second time, and that was why he was kept out of the promised land. My concern is that although I have never believed we can lose our salvation, is What happened to Moses representative of a Christian who is not allowed into heaven because of some unforgiveable sin?

    Have some of us been wrong in the believe that our Eternal Life is only eternal as long as we life right and don't displease God? That sounds too much like works to me, and Eph. 2:9 says that salvation is NOT by works but by the grace of God.
     
    #20 Jon-Marc, Apr 3, 2007
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