Moses said, "Hear HIM." The Father said, "Hear HIM". We must hear HIM then.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Daniel David, Mar 21, 2004.

  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    This really deserves its own thread.

    Moses said in Deuteronomy 18:

    15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear ."

    19 "And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him."

    Moses prophesied that a greater prophet would come with a greater message. In fact, once this prophet came, God would judge people by their obedience/disobedience to the words of this prophet.

    Matthew 17:5

    "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!"

    The context is the transfiguration. Moses and Elijah (the two most famous prophets) appeared with Christ. When Peter made a comparison though, God removed Moses and Elijah and demanded that we hear his beloved son.

    Hebrews 3:3

    "For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house."

    This is a passage that compares Christ with Moses. Moses was faithful in his task, but Christ is superior. Note that they are both prophets. Prophets are known by the revelation they gave. The revelation of Christ is superior to that of Moses. If it was the same message, then Christ wouldn't have been superior.
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    We need to be very careful with this. Some people make Christ the best expositor of Moses. What utter nonsense.
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    Christ introduced a new law, a new covenant, a new people, a new worship, a new access to God, etc.

    Stop relegated Christ to just another prophet.
     
  2. Joseph_Botwinick

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    Of course Christ was superior to Moshe. Moshe was merely a man whom God used. Christ was / is God. That alone makes him superior.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  3. Helen

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    James, who wrote the first copy of the Ten Commandments?
     
  4. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    God did. Thanks for ignoring the points though and trying to sidetrack the discussion.

    My turn.

    How much of the law did Christ fail to fulfill?
     
  5. Helen

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    My point is not sidetracking the issue. Christ Himself gave us the Law through Moses. Christ Himself said that law would not be changed in the slightest. And yes, Christ Himself fulfilled the Law for us.

    That does not change the Law; it only changes its power over us.

    If the Law was now gone, dead, there would be nothing to judge any unbeliever by, would there?

    In fact, there would be no way of knowing if we were obeying Christ.

    The Law stands as long as sin exists.

    Look again at what Paul says in Romans 7:

    Indeed, I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." ... For apart from the law, sin is dead.
     
  6. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Helen, you didn't answer my question.

    Christ said that the law would not be broken because he was born under it, that he might redeem those under it. He HAD to perfectly obey the law. That is why he didn't break it.

    Since he knew he would perfectly fulfill the law, he could give instruction for what we should do once he did away with the law by instituting the new covenant.

    As far as Paul goes, you obviously miss the historical truth behind it.

    Paul was a pharisee who lived according to the law. The law is what condemned him.

    Now that the law has passed and been replaced by a higher law (Christ's law), no one can say what Paul said.

    Remember that the law was one unit, not two or three or whatever popular break up it is today.

    Besides, Christ explicitly said that the Holy Spirit would come to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

    I would recommend you reading Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews together and focus on the texts about the law. The law has passed. It was temporary by nature. If you disagree, you need to reread Hebrews.

    Reread my original post. Moses said that a prophet would come with a greater revelation. Hello! What does that mean?
     
  7. Helen

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    None of that does away with the Law. We are simply not under it. However there is no way for the Holy Spirit to convict anyone of sin if sin is not defined. The Law defines it.

    As long as sin stays, the Law does not change one least little mark of the pen.

    You are confusing definition with conviction. They are not the same thing.
     
  8. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Helen, have you ever wondered how people knew what sin was prior to the giving of the Law? Obviously not.

    We are not under the law IN ANY WAY.

    We are under Christ's law.

    The Mosaic law doesn't define sin for me in the least little bit.
     
  9. Helen

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    Well, Moses referred to the Sabbath and that it must be kept when manna was given. That was before he received the Law. Noah knew that capital punishment was required for murder. That was before Moses. Abraham knew that there was one God and only He was to be worshiped. That was before Moses.

    Jacob and Laban certainly knew about bearing false witness against one's neighbor. That was before Moses.

    Even Cain and Abel knew to sacrifice.

    How do you explain that?
     
  10. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Amazing that they didn't need the Mosaic Law to understand what sin was. Wow, amazing that people today don't need the Mosaic law to tell us what sin is.
     
  11. Helen

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    Either that or the law was there all along...it was just through Moses that the written Law was established.

    You see, it was always God's law, not Moses' law. I suspect that man, being the same then as now, had added so much to it (just as the Pharisees did later) that God put it in stone so that there would be something definite to refer to.

    But, by Paul's definition, without the law, sin is dead. So the law was there all along, starting with "Don't eat that ..."
     
  12. Daniel David

    Daniel David
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    Helen, no it wasn't. Paul said that the law was ADDED that sin might increase. Sorry 'bout that.
     
  13. Helen

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    I leave you to yours, DD. I'll stick with what Jesus said, and the evidence throughout the Bible.

    In the meantime, there is this interesting verse in Exodus, BEFORE the law was given on Mt. Sinai. The scene is the waters at Marah, right after Moses throws the wood into the water, and the water becomes sweet.

    Exodus 15:25b-26 -- There the Lord made a decree and a law for them, and there he tested them. He said, "If you listen carefully to the voice of the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, IF YOU PAY ATTENTION TO HIS COMMANDS AND KEEP ALL HIS DECREES, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord who heals you."

    This is quite some time before Mt. Sinai.

    What commands and decrees do you suppose the Lord was referring to?
     
  14. Daniel David

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    That which he was about to give them Helen. Very hard question.

    You aren't agreeing with Christ. You are disagreeing. You have been shown to be in error but persist. Don't harden your heart. I have met every challenge and brought many points which you just gloss over.

    Well, I agree with Moses that a greater prophet would bring in a greater revelation.

    I agree with the Father that we are to hear his beloved son.
     
  15. Helen

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    I was under the impression, James, that the God who was speaking in the Old Testament WAS Jesus! Do you believe differently?

    Yes, there definitely was a greater revelation with the incarnation. But that did not erase the law. Here, so I don't have to type it out again, is what I wrote on your other thread on the law, too:

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    Perhaps it would be good to mention that the reference to the Law in the Bible generally refers to the written Law -- that which was given through Moses.

    If God's commands are considered law, however, then the law did indeed exist from the beginning, in verbal form. He commanded Adam not to eat of that one tree. Cain and Abel knew about sacrifice, and the Lord talked to Cain about sin. In the chapter DD is referring to (Romans 5), we also read the following: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned -- for before the law was given, sin was in the world. BUT SIN IS NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT WHEN THERE IS NO LAW.

    Take a look at that closely. Sin is not taken into account when there is no law. And yet just before that, Paul writes before the law was given sin was in the world.

    Adam could not have disobeyed had God not given him a law. But sin was in the world before that law was given. Where? How?

    Satan. Sometime between the creation of Eden and God's direction to Adam, Satan rebelled. The first law was given to Adam.

    And if sin is not taken into account without the law, then why Noah's Flood? Was God not taking all that sin into account?

    The written law was given to Moses. But the law of God was known to man orally, at least, before that time, as evidenced by Paul himself in the very chapter DD is referring to when he mentions that 'the law was added so that the trespass might increase.' The word Paul uses there, translated 'law', is 'nomos.' It means law, principle, regulation...it is from the root 'nemo', which means 'to parcel out' as in food for animals.

    There is no indication in the word Paul chose to use that he was referring to the written law, or the law as given through Moses in particular. The word indicates that he was talking about any of the rules and regulations set down by God. And these started in Eden, with the proscription regarding the fruit of one particular tree.
     

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