Most Do Not Worship in Spirit and Truth

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by plain_n_simple, Feb 12, 2016.

  1. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    John 4-23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.

    Jesus is announcing a new manner in which to worship that is directly connected to The New Covenant. He uses the word "true worshipers" instead of simply "worshipers" hinting "If you really want to follow me..... this is important children."

    He further focuses by saying it again


    24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

    " in Spirit and inTruth" now requires a definition of what each is, and what each is not, to understand and obey this new instruction Jesus gave.

    When the choir really delivers Jubilee to a standin clappin happy crowd, it is not worshiping in the Spirit, but it is in Truth

    When you silently sing the words to How Great Thou Art in your mind at work, it is not worshiping in the Spirit, but it is in Truth

    When we are silent with no words, just a peaceful meditation on Jesus, it is not worshiping in the Spirit, but it is worshiping in Truth


    words we don't know/Spirit words we do know/Truth

    1Cor14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful...."

    "My spirit prays" and "pray in a tongue" are interchangeable, equivalent.


    "My spirit prays" and "my mind understands" are not interchangeable, nor equivalent. It says when praying in the Spirit
    "....my mind does not understand the words I speak"


    The very characteristic of praying in the Spirit is that man is not supposed to understand it. Not the speaker and not other people...only the Holy Spirit is designed to know.............in normal prayer the mind understands the words....in Spirit prayer the mind wont understand.

    15 "So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding, I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding".


    Paul says he will do both, pray in tongues( pray in the Spirit) and also pray intelligible words of Gospel Truth It is now a clear instruction

    I will worship in Spirit, and in Truth
    There is a pattern


    Acts 10....was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God
    .
    worship in Spirit and in Truth


    To "Worship in Truth" is to use scripture and voice to sing, praise, or recite with joy His glory, His gospel, and also so the lost may hear and repent It is to speak His praises right out of the bible

    Here Paul makes the distinction between prayer tongues and public tongues, showing the importance of praying, worshiping in the Spirit
    18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.



    Acts 19-6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

    worship in Spirit and in Truth
     
  2. InTheLight

    InTheLight
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    16,249
    Likes Received:
    619
    So, let me see if I'm understanding this. When someone prays in tongues, they don't know what language (if any) they are using. And they don't know what they are saying. Presumably the Holy Spirit is causing them to utter words they can't comprehend, but God can understand them.

    So, essentially, we have one part of the all-knowing Godhead talking to another part of the all-knowing Godhead about something that the person saying the words has no knowledge of. Sort of the all powerful talking to Himself but needs a human to intervene. Does this sound about right?
     
  3. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Hi Brother,

    The use of the term "in spirit and in truth" is out of context for how you are applying it to your OP just as people misuse "God is Spirit" in denying the deity of Christ and even denying we were made in God's image.

    That event of the Samaritan woman speaking to Jesus at the well was about where to go to worship God at; the mountains or Jerusalem?

    Jesus was testifying to a time which is now that those that come to God the Father to worship Him will do so in spirit and in truth as God is Spirit, meaning now, we do not have to go to a place to come to worship God the Father, but we can worship Him anywhere by coming to the Son in worship of Him and thus by Him, God the Father too.

    So basically, God is no longer confined to a place of worship for believers to go to worship God the Father by when they can do so anywhere by way of the Son. John 14:6

    The praying in tongues topic is also out of context for what Paul was meaning.

    Paul was not saying that tongues will be used for praying. Paul was saying that if and when he speaks in tongues which is manifested by the Holy Spirit, Paul will be praying within himself silently as in his mind that another may interpret that tongue so that not only will others be edified, but so will he, himself, because it is unfruitful even to himself.

    So in context, it cannot be about the Holy Spirit praying at all.

    1 Corinthians 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    You should know a certain truth about the Holy Spirit is that He cannot speak for Himself, but can only speak for Another.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    That means when Jesus was on earth, the Holy Spirit served as the Spirit of the Father.

    Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    Now that the Son has ascended, all power & the Father's words has been given unto the Son so that the Holy Spirit now serves as the Spirit of Christ.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    So understand Paul when he testified to the bottom line of what tongues were for.

    1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

    I can understand your P.O.V. when all modern Bibles testified in error that the Holy Spirit can utter His intercessions by Himself, but the KJV testifies to the contrary by using "itself" because His intercessions are unspeakable as in unutterable; hence no sound at all in verse 26 which is why verse 27 exists.

    Verse 27 testifies the means as to why "itself" is used by testifying to a "he" that searches our hearts which is the Word of God aka the Lord Jesus Christ as testified in Hebrews 4:12-16 as this is the "he" that searches our hearts.. just as this is the "he" that knows the mind of the Spirit.

    Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

    27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    So the Spirit will not stop being the Spirit of Christ by praying for Himself in using tongues as a form of prayer language to God.

    Believers are not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring because familiar spirits can bring babbling nonsense which is not God's gift of tongues to speak unto the people.

    Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

    It is God's will for US to pray normally so as to know what we had prayed for in order to give thanks to the Father in Jesus's name for answered prayers.

    1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

    So ask Jesus Christ at that throne of grace to help you test the spirits and discern the tongues that you have.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

    The Holy Spirit cannot pray Himself but Jesus knowing the mind of the Spirit, can give His unspeakable intercessions to the Father, because there is only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

    If you see the purpose of that below, then you may understand why the Holy Spirit will not give His own prayers by Himself to the Father.

    John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    Only the Son can answers prayers which is why only the Son can give the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions to the Father by knowing His mind and by giving our intercessions by searching our hearts which explains why the Father knows everything before we ask anything in prayer.

    Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

    2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness....25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    God wants us to pray. Do not let any spirit come inbetween you and the Bridegroom in "praying for you with babbling nonsense" and thus interrupting your prayer time and leading you away from doing God's will.
     
  4. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    Nope, you are totally off and are not quite receptive to the Spirit revealing the scripture to you. Your still in the academic, of flesh mode of understanding, which isn't a bad thing we have to start somewhere and at least you are seeking, praise God!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Did you notice how you did not address any reproofs I had shared with you by the scripture in the KJV?

    2 Timothy 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

    I can't grow if you are unwilling to address the reproofs I had shared, unless of course, you have no answer for the reproofs.

    Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. 4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For every man shall bear his own burden. 6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

    We should all be open to correction from the Good Shepherd by the scripture as kept in the KJV Bible for we can never stop learning nor growing till we see him face to face.

    1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    I hope the Lord Jesus Christ will lead you to continue this discussion, and who knows? Maybe you will find your bearing fruit, will be purged to bear more fruit.

    John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

    1 Peter 3:But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,361
    Likes Received:
    789
    If you are a KJVO then you have no credibility on anything. Good luck with that.
     
  7. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Don't use KJVO as a reason not to heed the meat of His words in the KJV.

    You can use any modern Bible to prove a wrong translation within that Bible.

    All modern Bibles of Romans 8:26-27 is going against their John 16:13 which proves that the modern Bibles translated Romans 8:26-27 wrong because it is not done in truth when the Holy Spirit CANNOT give His own "unutterable" intercessions Himself since He cannot speak for Himself ( John 16:13 ) which is why He needs the Son to know the mind of the Spirit in giving His unspeakable intercessions to the Father which is in according to the will of God, because there is only one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.

    A lot of believers gloss over that truth of John 16:13 to not see the error of Romans 8:26-27 on why "itself" was used when the proper pronoun of "he" and "him" was used elsewhere in regards to the Person of the Holy Spirit.

    Itself denotes the Holy Spirit serving as a means and not really doing it "Himself".

    And some modern Bibles have Romans 8:26-27 infer that sounds are being uttered when the Holy Spirit gives His intercessions "Himself" thus why tongues without interpretation is being used as a form of prayer language as being assumed being done by the Holy Spirit in praying back to God. John 16:13 would make Jesus Christ praying back to Himself by way of the Holy Spirit, and that is not happening.

    This is why God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people, and why this babbling nonsense is not of Him at all as this comes as given by testimonies by other wayward believers that they feel the Holy Spirit coming over them "again" later on in life long after they have been saved, bringing this tongue that comes with no interpretation.

    Romans 8:26-27 in all modern Bibles misleads them into believing that.

    This is why I rely only on the KJV because it maintains the meat in His words in that Romans 8:26-27 does not run contrary to John 16:13 at all.
     
  8. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    "I can't grow if you are....."
    Your intention is not to grow especially from anything I would say to you. It comes down to how do you pray in the Spirit? Or rather describe what takes place when you personally pray in the Spirit?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    How do we grow on that topic or any topic? By the scripture, of which I will insist on using the King James Version only so as to avoid all doubts since all the scriptural references lines up with each other in truth in the KJV.

    Have you ever noticed how those that seek tongues, do so by seeking to receive the "Holy Spirit again" with evidence of tongues when 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 says there is no such thing?

    Saved believers will change their testimony as to when they were saved by that phenomenon that happens to them later on in life and say that was when they were saved when they had gotten tongues which is why many believers seek tongues as a sign that they had received the Holy Spirit for the first time as a sign that they are saved.

    I had a neighbor across the street that was just reading her Bible one day in the kitchen by herself when she claimed the Holy Spirit came over her and she began speaking in tongues.

    She went to the pastor and had asked him what had happened and he pointed to the Book of Acts which I assume was Acts 2 where the disciples were just waiting around, doing everyday things when it had happened. Even though she had been a believer and going to church for a long time, she said that was when she was saved.

    She even went on to testify that others in church also testified to the same experience of doing everyday things when the "Holy Spirit" came over them and they began to speak in tongues too, but I saw her rolled her eyes when she had said that as if disbelieving some of it or all of it.

    Essentially, this is why some believers out there are saying that you have to speak in tongues or you don't have the Holy Spirit and thus you are not saved.

    Some will take that same phenomenon and say that means that God was calling them into the ministry. Joyce Meyers made such a claim when she claimed that the Holy Spirit came over her bringing tongues. So instead of using tongues as a sign that she was saved at that time, she said it was a sign that God was calling her into the ministry.

    So what would you say to those two incidences?

    I would point to the scripture for reproof that God would never use tongues as a sign for the believers.

    1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: ........

    That was Paul giving the bottom line on what tongues were for, and yet many believers today are claiming this "other" phenomenon that comes with tongues which happens to have no interpretation as a sign for the believers to use as having received the "Holy Spirit" "again", ignoring the warning below.

    Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

    2 Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

    This is why believers are not to believe every spirit, but test them and the tongues they bring since there is a supernatural tongue that is in the world that is just babbling nonsense.

    Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

    2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

    The hypocrisy is believing they can receive the Holy Spirit "again" even though they already confess that He is in them already.

    1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.



    So if we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, then God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people will NOT mimick the devil's tongues of vain and profane babblings which was in the world BEFORE Pentecost. So test the spirits & test the tongues.
     
    #9 Hark, Feb 14, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  10. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    i apologize. I did not respond to you first volley because it looked so so long and drawn out. The OP is longer than I intended also but I respect that you are thorough. If we could start over. First, you want to use King James and I'm agreeable if we can compare it to the original text?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    As long as we rely on the Son as the Good Shepherd to help us trough the Holy Spirit in us to understand His words and using it rightly for discernment as well as for edification and correction.

    Examine John 16:13 in how the Holy Spirit will not speak and then how He will speak before looking at Romans 8:26-27 to the original text at this site.

    John 16:13 at this link below:

    http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B43C016.htm

    Then Romans 8:26-27 at this link below:

    http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B45C008.htm
     
  12. plain_n_simple

    plain_n_simple
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,887
    Likes Received:
    5
    So yes? You will refer to the Greek....ok now explain to me how you Hark, pray in the spirit? I do not want scripture for now. Where are you physically? Church, garage, mountain top? And finally describe the actual praying. Are there words? What do you say? etc
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Are we back to doing this topic without the scripture in the KJV? You had stated that you are willing to do this and then what? No?

    As for your questions:

    My body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and so I can pray anytime from anywhere on earth to the Father by way of the Son, because that is the only way God has provided for me to come to Him John 14:6 is more than just a favorite verse for salvation.

    John 14:6 is a commandment on how any believer is to come to God the Father by, as all invitations points to the Son and none to the Holy Spirit because there are seducing spirits in the world for why we should be seeking the face of the Bridegroom in prayer as well as in worship.

    God wants me to pray. Me.

    1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you....25 Brethren, pray for us.

    By knowing what I had prayed for, then I can give the Father genuine thanks in Jesus's name for answered prayers which is to His glory.
     
  14. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Continuing from my first post #13 to your post of #12

    1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you....25 Brethren, pray for us.

    Believers that pray in tongues have shared that they would be praying normally and then get interrupted by the "Spirit" and begin praying in tongues, and yet scripture testifies that we are to pray without ceasing and so that "interruption" cannot be of Him when He wants "us" to pray.

    People have prayed to the Holy Spirit to come and give them this tongue but scripture testifies again that the Holy Spirit's job is not to answer prayers.

    John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    That is why there is only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

    And that is because the Son is the only One that gives our intercessions and the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions to the Father so that when the father says "yes" to any of those intercessions, the Son answers the prayer so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answered prayers.
     
  15. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,209
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    I am sorry but you have made a mistake of grammar. The use of "itself" in Romans is due to the word for "spirit" being a neuter noun in Greek so the pronoun used to refer to the noun must also be in the neuter gender.

    In the John passage your error is assuming the "he" refers to the "spirit" - which it cannot do because the genders don't match. "He" is a masculine singular and "spirit" is a neuter singular.

    In fact, the reason it says "he" is that the antecedent of the pronoun is found up in verse 7 where we see the masculine singular noun "Comforter."

    Sorry to destroy your KJVO argument but God did not make a mistake when he inspired His word in Greek. He understands Greek grammar and gets it right every time. :)
     
  16. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Not really when you consider how "itself" is being used in the verse.

    If the Holy Spirit is not really speaking, but speaks what He hears, then is He really speaking Himself per se? No.

    Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

    So when Jesus was on earth, if it is not really the disciples that speak, and not really the Spirit that speak, but the Spirit of the Father, then how truthful are we being in using itself as opposing using Himself when the Spirit is not really speaking Himself?

    What if you are assuming that, because of "itself" as being neuter when referring to the Spirit serving as a means for which something is happening in that verse?

    I find the "he" as one of the definitions when going to the Greek word "ho"

    http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/STRGRK35.htm#S3588

    "he hay, and the neuter to to in all their inflections; the definite article; the (sometimes to be supplied, at others omitted, in English idiom):--the, this, that, one, he, she, it, etc."

    Do you consider the possibility that because of "itself" , Biblical scholars assume that all reference to the Spirit has to be in the neuter sense?

    Yes... He understand Greek, but we are still human, including educated Biblical scholars, and the people doing the Concordance even.

    Some Biblical scholars had thought that the behemoth was an elephant or a rhino as per a footnote in a Bible, but neither an elephant nor a rhino has a tail like a cedar which is a tree.

    So I see why "itself" is used to infer the Holy Spirit serving as a means, but man was created in God's image; in His image... so the Spirit of God is a He.
     
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,209
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    Yes, really.
     
  18. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    Well, thanks for sharing.

    I believe that there is a reason for why KJV & the 1599 Geneva Bible is using itself instead of Himself, and that is because the Holy Spirit isn't really doing the action Himself in that verse in Romans 8:26 which is why Another is needed in verse 27 in knowing the mind of the Spirit in making the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions known to the Father.

    You can go to the root of the Greek word all you want, but how it is used in the verse is the message I am sharing with our brother of this OP that tongues is not for the Spirit to use for praying, especially when in John 16:13, He cannot speak for Himself.
     
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,209
    Likes Received:
    1,316
    So do I. It is called proper Greek grammar.
    I told you how it is used in the verse in question. It has nothing to do with what you claim. It is a simple matter of proper Greek grammar.
    Ton-gues are not for today, period. But you cannot defend the truth with an untruth. Your failure to understand why the spirit is referenced with a neuter pronoun simply makes your argument moot.

    If you want to help this brother out show him 1 Corinthians 11. Paul says "tongues shall cease." They did. He says in the last verse of that chapter "Now abides faith, hope, and love, these three." What Paul did NOT say was "Now abides faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six."

    And the reason he did not say that is that, at the time of the writing of 1 Corinthians the confirmatory sign gifts were no longer being given to new converts, and over the next 4 decades, as those already possessing the gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge grew old and died, the gifts died with them.

    Defend truth with truth. You can't defend truth with error. :)
     
    #19 TCassidy, Feb 15, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2016
  20. Hark

    Hark
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2014
    Messages:
    667
    Likes Received:
    5
    What if it is you that is having the failure to understand? Granted, Biblical scholars and the popular accepted opinion of the educated field is influencing you to not see anything else but the letter of that word being the neuter, but that is different from relying on His wisdom in understanding why "itself" is used in that verse besides supposedly being neutral in gender.

    To me, being neutral to gender, at least, that is what I think you are trying to convey, is denying the Holy Spirit being of the One God, and denying that man was created in "his" image of that One Triune God. Am I saying that the Holy Spirit has a gender? In one sense, yes, when He is being the Spirit of God, Whom that God is a He, then so is the Spirit a Him.

    Therefore, the neuter sense has to mean in the context message of the verse as inferring as a means to an end of that testimony, since the Holy Spirit is not speaking for Himself by His own volition, but for Another.

    It is a popular belief that the gifts had ceased, but that is not what that reference is inferring. In context;

    1 Corinthians 11:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    You have to explain what that "perfect is come" ( which means presently ) means. If we read on, we would think that is inferring to meeting Christ face to face.

    1 Corinthians 11:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    Understandable as per your P.O.V., and I love you in Christ for trying to correct me and even more so, for sticking to the topic, but you have to be open to correction too, or at the very least, be open to discern again that which you had believed to be correct so as to either find another way to confirm your P.O.V. to me or wait until you do or revise your standing on that issue.

    As it is, tongue speakers are experiencing a real supernatural phenomenon that comes with babbling nonsense and so instead of testing the spirits, they are believing every one that is coming over them, especially when it brings tongues, even though it comes without interpretation, as being of the Holy Spirit, when it is not since the Holy Spirit was already in them the moment they had believed in Jesus Christ after the hearing of the gospel. 1 John 4:1-6 It is in that, they have the spirit of error as opposing the Spirit of Truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

    Do I believe tongues have ceased? I know God would not manifest His gift of tongues in a church where everyone speaks the same language. The Holy Spirit is not vain to manifest tongues and then the interpretation of tongues when just prophesying will do since the manifestations of the gifts are to profit the body of Christ as a whole.

    1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Every member of the body of Christ has a function. That has not ceased.

    But even if I am wrong about the Holy Spirit not manifesting tongues in a church that only speaks one language, tongues would not be used as a sign that there is another drink of the One Spirit so that they may know that tongue which comes without interpretation by that other drink of the "spirit" was not the Holy Spirit at all.

    1 Corinthians 12:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

    And certainly, the Holy Spirit does not make believers fall down in these events when believers are supposedly receiving the Holy Spirit "again" with the evidence of tongues.

    1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

    Wayward believers do love the spotlight when they fall down.

    Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

    This is my stand for now and so either try again to correct me or at the very least, understand why I see the way I do that God would not manifest His gift of tongues when an assembly is in apostasy, promoting babbling nonsense as His gift of tongues in order to promote seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign which is the apostasy. Matthew 12:29 & 2 Corinthians 11;1-4 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 & 1 Timothy 4:1-2
     

Share This Page

Loading...