Mother Mary??

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by David.Mathews, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. David.Mathews

    David.Mathews
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    As an orphaned Christian Striving to do the will of my Heavenly father, I recently have been asking the tough questions, and I , by the grace of the Perfect Father, am beholding my Mother. It has not been an easy road, and one that has been far from trails and the menacing of the adversary. But now that my Soul has found refuge in Mother- I must share- Mary is mother of all Christians. I pray that all Christians can drop the debate about the Roman Catholic Church, and not let prejudice against the RC’s to reject Mary.


    My heart aches for every congregation that has a pastor that avoids the topic of Mary for fear of being called Catholic. What about “all generations shall call me blessed”. How is this possible If we skirt around Her all of the time?

    I claim to no little at best. I hope however that the discussion here we all can be honest with ourselves, with the Bible, and with God, and lay down our religions and discuss a few of Our saviors last words:


    “Woman, Behold your Son…Behold your Mother”
     
  2. Jude

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    The earliest prayer to the Blessed Virgin probably
    derives from the great Church of Alexandria in the late 2nd Century...

    "We take refuge under your protection, holy Mother of God, Listen to our prayers, help us in our needs, and save us from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin."

    In the 4th and 5th century, during the time of great Christological controversy, Mary's title was vindicated by the Council of Ephesus in 431, against the heresy of Nestorius. Her title, THEOTOKOS, was a case of Mariology protecting Christology.

    No one in the 'Catholic' stream of the Church advocates WORSHIP of anyone other than God. But of all who have ever lived -save Jesus of course- there is none who was so-ever filled with Grace.
    We are called, I believe, to venerate, honor and respect the Virgin Mary, the saints, and all the holy people of God.
     
  3. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    Dave_Mathews,

    There is only one question to ask: "Who has the power to save me?

    If your answer is MARY the mother of JESUS, then by all means put your trust in HER, but you'll be disappointed.

    If your answer is JESUS the SON of God, who came through Mary the obedient servant, then YOU are obligated to look at Mary not as your mother, but as another in the same boat as yourself, in need of the SAME Salvation that you are in need of. In that manner you will put things in their proper perspective.

    God alone has the power to save, He gave none of that power to Mary! God is no respecter of man, Mary was 100% female man.

    I honor Mary for her willingness to be used of God, and who was obedient in birthing and raising Jesus to adulthood. Therefore She shall always be called Blessed for having done so. She is not however blessed with any Salvific or divine powers. She is just another obedient saint of God.

    She does not visit people on earth because her work is finished! Apparitions of "the blessed virgin" are just that, apparitions, figments of "the willing to believe" imagination. Those who are willing to believe in aliens, see them in everything, everywhere. It works the same in religious circles, those who are willing to believe in "the blessed virgin" see "her" in everything and everywhere.

    One more thought, Those who believe in God, see God with their own imagined "image of God". No man has seen God and lived. You can't because we are not made to see spirit, and God is spirit. What form does a spirit have? It is certainly not the "human form" that people all over the world "see" when they see what they call "the blessed virgin" or when they visualize God on his throne.
     
  4. trying2understand

    trying2understand
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    Yelsew2, you really must read the Bible.

    Jesus is God and Jesus is man. The Apostles saw God and lived. We can visualize God as a man because Jesus is God and Man.

    Your statments really are surprising.
     
  5. Trotter

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    Mary was just a woman that was willing to be used by God for His purposes. That is why God chose her, because she was willing.

    Dave, I feel for you. I still have both of my parents, and I know how hard it will be when I lose them to death. But holding on to Mary- "But now that my Soul has found refuge in Mother- I must share- Mary is mother of all Christians." -is not your answer.

    Hold on to God with all your strength. You say you are too weak? Ask Him for it. But hold on to Him, because He is holding on to you.

    I do not pretend to know what the RCC teaches about Mary (what I have heard makes me want to break things). But I do know that holding on to a dead woman, even one who was willing to carry the Son of God, will not get you anywhere.

    I will be praying for you. But you must look to God, not Mary. Only He can fulfil the emptiness that you feel.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  6. Yelsew2

    Yelsew2
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    Jesus tells us that God is spirit and those who worship God must worship in spirit and truth. Jesus also told us that spirit is like the wind. Can you describe the shape (form) of the wind?

    Human spirit is not conformed to the physical human body, though it is somehow held captive to the physical body until the death of the flesh. Then what form or shape does the human spirit assume? Can't come up with a description can you? There is nothing that we know that accurately describes spirit, and no you can't throw a sheet over it either!

    You will remember that the Apostles did not declare that Jesus is God, but that He is the Son of God, the Christ (Messiah). So they did not "see" God! Though God was present among them, it was the man Jesus that they saw, and his works and words that made them believe in Him. The demons that Jesus dealt with did see God in Jesus however, because demons also do not have a describeable form or shape. Ya, can't believe Hollywood either, after all, what do they know!

    So what I said is as true as anyone's attempt. We imagine for ourselves what God looks like. To a white man Jesus is white, to a black man Jesus is black, to a red man the Great spirit is like unto them, to the Asian, the supreme being is like unto them.

    Since "I must read the bible", could you lead me to the scriptures that you think I should read?
     
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Why was Mary "blessed"? Catholic teaching erroneously believes it is from WITHIN her, and developed the cult of Mary and adding doctrines such as her immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption into heaven, mediatrix position. NOT IN THE BIBLE of course.

    Mary was "blessed" because God chose to "bless" her. No more, no less. People recognize she was blessed by God to bear Jesus (though it would be a sword through her heart).

    Catholics skirt the issue by saying they worship God and only venerate Mary. Right. Nice language, nice wording, but I don't play the game. I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood; I even sought to be an acolyte/altar boy. I have yet to find a Catholic that does not, in some way, worship Mary.

    Worship. Attribute godlike qualities of worth to her. And pray TO her.

    When you pray to Mary to forgive sins, that is worship. When you pray to Mary as the "mother" of God - who is more important, God or the MOTHER? Hello.

    Good subject for debate here.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Surely you can see that doctrines totally fabricated after the first century saints left the scene - complete myths invented by the RCC - are not the "common ground" upon which to appeal to those who have discarded those errors - right?

    But on somethings - both Catholics and non-Catholics can quickly agree:

    We all agree - no Bible text for the church calling Mary its Mother.

    We all agree - no Bible text for praying to the dead.

    We all agree - no Bible text for "seeing the dead"

    We all agree - no Bible text for the church needing to "see Mother Mary".

    I have good news for you. Non-Catholic pastors do not "ignore Mary". They just don't blaspheme the Deity in the form of mariolotry. Mary is blessed among women for being priviledged with raising the Christ.

    Unfortunately Mary was no more able to "understand" the ministry of Christ than her sons or the desciples. Neither was she ever seen to instruct anyone in the ways of the Messiah.

    (At least not in scripture. Mythology is quite another matter).

    We have tried numerous times to get our RC bretheren to do that very thing. But time after time we have been introduced to an amazing RC aversion to exegeting scripture.

    They have much preferred (so far) to quote other Catholic sources and ignore the text of scripture itself on these subjects.

    But your suggestion provides the promise (at least) that perhaps this trend is about to change.

    I am happy to see it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    #1. God has no Mother because God was never "procreated". All agree.

    #2. The Bible says "A body thou hast prepared for Me" - this body - is that which Mary was forming "biologically" - this does not constitute being the "Mother of God" in an incarnation process.

    #3. Incarnation is very different from Procreation. By definition incarnation takes an EXISTING person and simply gives them a human body. Which is why you could never attribute to a sinful human like Mary - the title "Mother of God".

    #4. Mary is never called "Mother of God".

    #5. Mary is never called "Mother of the Church of God".

    #6. Mary is never called "Queen of Heaven"

    #7. Mary is neveer "prayed to".

    #8. Mary is never "consulsted in any form" in all of scripture by the church, by Christ or even by the disciples during the life of Christ.

    How odd then that the worship of Mary (worshipping at her altars) should arise as a heresy of the dark ages.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. trying2understand

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    Given that you seem to fail to understand that Jesus is God, I suggest that you start with the four Gospels.

    News flash, Yelsew2, Jesus is God.

    Ahhhh... the fruits of sola scriptura. :rolleyes:
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Purgatory, indulgences, popes, mariolotry, mass exterminations, popes torturing their own cardinals and then tossing them over the sides of their papal warships....

    ahhhh the "the fruits of abandoning sola scriptura"! :rolleyes:

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. trying2understand

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    Bob, you seem to be defending Yelsew2's belief.

    Better ask you too.

    Is Jesus God?

    A simple yes or no will do.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    God the Son was Incarnated by God - He was not procreated by Mary.

    Sadly - this is where RC theology fails as it tries to bolster mariolotry.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Jude

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    the fruit of sola scriptura: umpteen-thousand denominations, each 'doing what is right in (their)own eyes.' :rolleyes:
     
  15. Gina B

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    Nobody has seen God in his true form. They saw God manifested in the flesh, in a way that we could understand and deal with and live.

    Dave Matthews, hi there. Would you care to share more about why you feel you're an "orphaned" Christian? What's going on spiritually, what led you to feel how you do now?
    BTW, there's nowhere a person can go that God isn't. Comforting for the most part, but also kinda scary at times when we want to run and hide!
    As far as Mary, I don't know about skirting around her. She is blessed among women, not above them. We do not ignore her. Her name is repeated every time we tell the story of Jesus. God used her in a glorious way, and it's a great example of what He can do with those who love and honor and obey Him. Her handling of it was also a wonderful example of obedience and love. Instead of being angry that she was put in this position where people would think her unpure and guilty of a most embarassing sin, she responded with joy, and said "my soul doth magnify the Lord". She didn't dwell on the physical aspects of it, she recognized the spiritual wonder of it all.
    No, we cannot ignore Mary in this aspect. It doesn't mean we pray to her or build statues of her though, just as we don't pray to/build statues of Paul, or Peter, or Abraham, or missionaries who have been tortured and killed for Christ's name, or our pastors, or Billy Graham, or others we see as examples.
    Gina
     
  16. Gina B

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    I forgot to add about the phrase "Woman behold your son...behold your mother".

    JN 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

    JN 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

    It sounds as if Jesus gave care of Mary to his loved disciple, telling Mary to see this disciple as his son, and the disciple to treat Mary as his mother.
    Gina
     
  17. Jude

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    The problem, as you likely know, is that many of us do not 'limit' ourselves to 'what is in the Bible,' having also placed 'Tradition' as a source of great authority. I reject the 'immaculate conception' as do the Orthodox. She needed her Son's sacrifice as well. That said, I think that she was likely a very righteous young woman. After all, the angel called her 'full of grace'.
    She had to have been a holy woman to be the 'tabernacle' of God. Her perpetual virginity was held-to by the early church. The words of Jesus to John on the Cross, "behold thy mother" may be an indication that Mary had no-other children. If she did, why would our Lord put Mary in John's care? I wouldn't 'spill blood' over this one, but it seems likely to me, given the universal belief of the early church on this matter, that she was 'ever-Virgin'. Her 'assumption' is not, as you point-out, in Scripture, but I see nothing 'wrong' with this belief. After all, wasn't Moses and Elijah 'assumed' in to heaven as well? Perhaps our Lord did not want to see his 'tabernacle' undergo corruption. Again, I wouldn't 'spill blood' over this one either, but it does seem possible. I am, as many are, uncomfortable with those who 'advocate' Mary's 'mediatrix' position. The Bible clearly states that there is one Mediator, that being Christ.
     
  18. trying2understand

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    I had a feeling that you would be unable to simply say yes or no.

    I'll ask again.

    Bob, is Jesus God?

    Yes or no?
     
  19. trying2understand

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    Gina, what form does Jesus have now, in heaven?
     
  20. trying2understand

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    Bob, what's this about?

    As SDA, you aren't sola-scriptura anyway.

    You regard your false prophetess's writings to be "inspired" and on par with true Scripture.

    You ain't sola scriptura, buddy, now matter how much you try to fool everybody.
     

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