Music in worship

Chapter and verse please!
It simply says:
Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

--Teaching and admonishing one another is better done on a one to one basis whether it be by preaching or by singing. The teaching and admonishing is the important part. Teaching is always done more effectively on a one to one basis. David used a harp and calmed the heart of Saul, even chasing the demonic spirit away. There was no choir there; just David and Saul.

There is no indication of a congregation singing either.

If the NT says anything at all about singing it says that it should be done orderly and one by one, and does not mention congregationally.

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
--Psalms were sung.

The emphasis was on order. They were not to do things together but one by one, and in order.
Here is the principle, which is applicable to singing as well:
1 Corinthians 14:27-28 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

There are no directives concerning congregational singing, only solos. Therefore, the COC should stop immediately, forthwith all congregational singing. They have no mandate from the NT to do so. Only solos are permitted, and that only one at a time. That is what is mandated here. IT is also the best form of teaching--the very purpose of Scriptural singing. In this the COC does not carry out the mandate of the Bible.

 

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing each other, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, in grace singing in your hearts to the Lord;

The pronouns in the verse are singular not plural. This verse teaches that:
1. we need to have the word of God dwelling in each of our hearts individually. It is personal. It is the Word of God and you. It is not the Word of God and the congregation.
2. And so the verse continues. "Admonishing each other in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs." There is nothing congregational about this. One of the best ways to retain knowledge is through music. It was a way of teaching. I taught my children this way when they were young. What Christian family doesn't? "Jesus loves me this is know," was not learned in Sunday School, but by the parents teaching their children, as were so many other truths through song.
3. The purpose was not for entertainment, but for teaching and admonishing. Congregational singing doesn't always fit that bill.

 

The pronouns in that verse are plural, not singular. In the KJ thee, thou, and thy are singular while you and your are plural. You are your are used in the texts from Col and Eph, thus Paul is addressing the people plurally. Those texts are without question given to the congregation.

 

No, the verse is not addressed to a congregation. The verse teaches principles. Here is the verse, and here are the principles:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

1. Let the word of Christ dwell in richly in all wisdom.
--How is this best accomplished? It is best accomplished by memorizing God's Word, which is best done on a personal level, not sitting in a congregation. We are commanded to memorize God's Word, to let it dwell in us richly; and to let it dwell in all wisdom, which gives the added effect of meditation. We cannot meditate properly on God's Word unless we have it memorized.

It doesn't say the place. The congregation may be applicable here. That is incidental. It is not excluded. There is one interpretation but many applications. Applying to learning in a congregation is simply a minor application. The command is for all Christians to let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly, thus the plural pronouns.

2. teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs
--We are to teach and admonish one another. That is the principle. The place is not given, nor was ever intended to. It is a timeless principle. Again: One interpretation, many applications. It would be a minor application for this to be done in a congregation, and wrong to say that the application is exclusively congregationally when it can be accomplished much better on a one to one basis within the family, or using teachers. There are other applications to this verse outside the congregation of the church.
--We are to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. How many of our hymns and the songs that we sings actually do that? How much do you get admonished by the songs sung in the church. Is that where we are taught? And yet that is the purpose of the song service in the church. This is better accomplished outside of the congregation than inside. In the first century singing was a major tool of teaching.

3. singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
--As in all places what use is our singing if it is not done with grace, and if it is not done in our hearts to the Lord. This applies to every place--not just: once-a-week-Christians.

Now look at an interesting note on some of the terms involved as defined by A.T. Robertson.

It is likely that musical instruments were used.

 

You say the NT tells us to sing ONLY. You declare that adding music to the singing would violate scripture since scripture does not say sing WITH MUSIC. This doctrine in itself is refuted by scripture, but let's use your standard and apply it to prayer.

The NT tells us to pray. Where does it tell us to pray AND close your eyes and bow your head? Do you ever close your eyes or bow your head when praying? If so, why? The bible does not say to close your eyes and bow your head while praying.

btw, prayer is worship.

Actually, the bible tells us to lift up our hands while praying. Is this what you do while praying? Or do you close your eyes and bow your head, an unfounded practice in scripture.

:jesus:

 

Well...the Bible doesn't say to sing in four-part harmony, so...



(BTW, the Church of Christ denomination (yes, I said it) is starting to fracture on this point. Two CoC churches in our area just started using instruments)

 

Don't expect a coherent response to this question. I have yet to see one on this issue from CoC folk...

 

Careful what you call goofy. Better men than you have come to the same conclusions:

In otherwords, babes might like them, but those who are spiritually mature have put away childish things.

The apostles never commended the practice, and all historical evidence available indicates that instruments were first brought into Christian worship centuries later through Rome.

 

Revelation is symbolic, and wrenching symbols from their contexts to find support for a practice isn't helping your case.

What gifts did the Spirit give to the Church for use in worship?

 

No, you're debating the use of machines to make music. Not music itself.

 

Better men than me can still have goofy facets of theology.

Ah, yes...the hint of spiritual immaturity, all because I dared to point out a misapplication of Scripture. Not sure how you got there, but I'm certain it was a fun trip for you.

Funny...why would God use an "unscriptural" description...even if it was symbolic? Sticking with that story isn't helping your case.



This is as good a place as any to say: I've used the word "goofy," because I feel that this is a rather silly stand for CoC to take. It takes a really hard twist to get there, and some passages (such as the Revelation one mentioned earlier) must be outright ignored. Finally, it's just always seemed like a strange hill to die on to me. But I've seen a very wide latitude in CoC folk stance on this...like I mentioned earlier, I know of a couple CoC churches who use instruments in worship now...and others who'd rather swallow a piano than use one in a church service...and still others who "meet in the middle:" You can have a piano at church, and even use it for things (such as children's stuff)...but don't put it in the "sanctuary."

Interesting, it is...

 

You assume I was talking about instruments. You assume too much. I wasn't. There are styles of music within music itself without instruments. JMS17 so far only recognizes congregational singing, not even a trio or quartet sung without the use of instrument. That is style.

Be careful what you assume before you post.

 

Someone who is open to learning why other groups do what they do in worship, would not be posting as judgmental as JSM17 has been posting.

 

So? Men of the calibre that were quoted have a reputation for gravity and sound doctrine. If they, with one accord, protest the use of instruments in worship, one should not assume it is simply because of an argument from silence, nor glibly dismiss it. Not one of them made the argument from silence.

Uh . . . . it is a summary of Spurgeon's comments. Did you read the quote?

Trip? I didn't even leave the couch.

Plowing isn't worship, but Christ uses it to symbolize discipleship.

Blowing trumpets isn't worship, but Paul uses the symbol to illustrate proper and improper uses of the gift of tongues.

Using your reasoning one could well hitch a team of oxen and drive a plow of the center aisle and call it worship.

 

Did he clarify the church buildings, the pews, the pulpit, the offering plates, the electricity to keep the buildings lit, warm, cool, etc. Where did he clarify these things? I live in a nation that (with the wind chill) gets down to minus 70. Do you think the Lord would allow us to use furnaces, though it is not clarified in the Bible?
You said: "God commanded His worship with the use of certain things." It is the other things that he didn't clarify that you just assume are wrong. That is a wrong assumption.

That is not true. Then do away with your computer, church buildings, etc. God didn't state anything about those either. That argument from silence doesn't work.

Correct. The place is not mentioned. It is both outside and inside of the church. It is to be from the heart and to the Lord. That is what is stipulated, as well as having the characteristics of teaching and admonishing, which all music of this generation does not have.

That is simply history. History is not Bible. One must go on Biblical principles not historical principles. I have showed you through A.T. Robertson's definition of the words of Col.3:16 that the very words indicate a use of instruments. One cannot be dogmatic about the absence of instruments. You cannot argue from silence.

Where in the Bible does it say that those words cannot be accompanied by instruments? Was David wrong in playing his harp before Saul? Did not any good come out of it?

Will the believers hear a trump or not. The Bible says that they will. Do you believe they will? If not, what will the hear? "When the trump of God shall sound..." Will you be left behind because you don't believe in instruments?

Your logic is flawed. What does the NT say about this?

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

There are many things written in the OT that are for our example. Musical instruments were not fulfilled at the cross. To come to such a conclusion is simply ludicrous, especially when they show up at Revelation again. BTW, they were used in the Corinthian Church. Paul rebukes their misuse, but not their abandonment.

Were musical instruments used? Yes, in the Corinthian Church.
Is singing commanded? Yes. Thus yes on both accounts.

Correct, it doesn't matter where you are. You can be alone in the forest and sing to the Lord and use the birds as your instruments.

 

What? Where in the world do you get that idea?

 

There's a punchline here involving another beast of burden, but I'll just leave it alone...

 

JSM17...

Did you ever think that the reason God never specifically says "sing, and also use instruments" is because...

1) He knows the old testament is filled with musical instruments, and He assumes that Christians will have the common sense to put 2 and 2 together and understand that they are OK.

2) He knows that musical instruments go with singing just like exhaling goes with inhaling...and so nobody will need to be told to use musical instruments.

Also...where does God specfically tell us in the new testament us to have specially built buildings for gathering and worship?

In the new testament they met in the Jewish buildings that were already built, or regular homes.


So, why are you guys not meeting in synogogs and homes?

What gives you the right to build buildings? You have no NT authorization. You are going beyond scripture.