Musical Instruments in Christ's church [2]

Second part of three:

DefenderoftheFaith: I have been patient with you, and I realize that you are abusing that to be brazen in making ridiculous statements.

First of all, you are once again assuming what the burden of proof is on you to substantiate. The Scriptures never once indicate that God does not want His people using musical instruments. Throughout Scripture, God indicates His approval of musical instruments. It is a logical fallacy to assume what you have to substantiate.

Let me emulate what you are doing: `I intend to show that 1+1 = 3. I will not accept any indications that 1+1=2. I will be assuming that right now 1+1=3, and that the burden is on anyone else who substantiate otherwise. Now, based upon my assumption, 1+1=3 right now, so 1+1=3. My case is therefore proven.' What folly.

Even more ridiculous is your assumption "You don't want to look at what the rest of the book of Revelation is like...." That is where I realized that I have been to generous with you, and you have abused that to fearlessly make ridiculous assertions. Please read:
I HAVE READ REVELATION FRONT TO BACK AND IN ITS ENTIRETY MORE THAN ONCE!

I have been among the militantly-vocal Churches of Christ. I am sure the `faithful, sound brethren' at your group told you `No one outside our group really studies the Bible' so you bought into it -- just as you bought into this whole idea that musical instruments should be banned despite the positive ways Scripture treats them.

Now, here is reality: the people in your group are not right when they boast about how `We alone study Scripture' or disparage outside church groups `They do not study the Bible.' You will find avid students of Scripture among the Independent Christian churches, Disciples of Christ, Holiness and Pentecostal and Charismatic groups, Methodists, Baptists, etc..

As for me, I have read Revelation. I have read the entire New Testament more than a few times in my 15 years of Christian service.

You do not know what you are talking about, and at this point, it is no longer possible for me to treat you like a person of intelligence.

You need to learn to study, research, and think for yourself, rather than let your group dictate what you think. Groups can be great for guidance and mentoring, but when you turn your brain to `low power' nearly every time the leaders and their carefully-selected deputies give you `guidance,' you are making a mistake.

 

Last part of three:

Now, up to this point, I have been willing to bear with your foolishness, which up to a few day ago I assumed was beneath your intelligence.

When DHK closed that first thread due to length, I assumed that you were still continuing to push your view on this to avoid appearing to have lost. I never dreamed you would actually be foolish enough to restart the conversation. I even thought of asking you `What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?' I was going to leave you alone -- but then you addressed me in this second thread. Therefore, I decided not to leave you alone.

Was it not obvious after 30+ pages that you were not going to convince anyone of your group's view on musical instruments? Was it not obvious that you would be wasting your time? It should have been.

A smart person would have realized `This is a good place to stop. I am not getting anywhere with anyone. With this, my stopping would not be viewed as conceding a defeat. I am going to take advantage of this, and drop it.'

A smart person knows when to quit. When you did not take advantage of that gift, and actually started this thread despite the obvious fact you are wasting your time, you showed me that you actually are as foolish as you made yourself appear in the first thread.

When you had the audacity to assert that I am actually avoiding looking at all of Revelation, I was floored that you thought someone like me had not already read the book of Revelation. Wow!

I have better things to do with my time. Proverbs 26:4 "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him" (JPS 1917). I will no longer be treating your arguments like those of an intelligent person. In doing so, I would be legitimizing your folly.

Also, I would be squandering my time when there are other things that more merit my attention. Ephesians 5:15-6 says "Look therefore carefully how ye walk, not as unwise, but as wise; |making the best use of the time| because the days are evil" (ASV|ESV|ASV). Continuing to spend a great deal of time on this foolishness would be discordant with this passage.

I will check in, and when you post something factually baseless or idiotic, I will comment. However, I am no longer going to thoroughly deal with comments you make or people you quote to speak for you. You do not merit the attention.

 

This was a very bad analogy, and I implore you to re-look at it.

People use musical instruments to worship; they also use electricity to worship. Disagree? Consider: they use electricity to heat the church, and to have lights, to enhance their worship experience. Remove the electricity, and you affect the people trying to worship.

Same with musical instruments. They are played to enhance the worship service.

Now, another question for you: Please tell us, what hymns were being sung in Hebrews 2:12?

 

> Electricity or oil lamps or pitch black...we're still just singing.

Unless you have an exceptional congregation, half are singing flat.

 

Agreed. However, a decent amount of sense would prevent what has happened on two threads.

To genuinely think that "sing" at Revelation 5 still means
1) `vocal only' and
2) the harps were not used for their purpose
would be a sign of not even decent sense.

Most of us know that to "sing" means to sing without instruments or with instruments. Most of us are accustomed to songs with instruments and singing with instruments. We do not think `Well, is the singer really singing if instruments are playing?' We know better.

Amazingly, there is a poster here who alleges that those of us with decent or good sense are trying to justify something. As I said before: "rubbish."

 

I agree with you that there is no merit to forbidding
1) musical instruments in worship, or
2) vocal-only music in worship.

 

Right; in many Churches of Christ, it is not enough to simply refrain from using musical instruments.

You have to believe that it is wrong to use them. The claim `We just do not use musical instruments' is too often not true.

These poor unfortunates probably did not know the whole truth. If making sure that the workers were never present during the use of musical instruments, making them promise never to go back would have been quite adequate. It is clear that this was not enough -- they had to specifically denounce the other Church of Christ.

It is a textbook example of factiousness: `It is not enough to be for us -- you must also be against them.' I am sure that the workers were not aware that factiousness was a job requirement. Those who took a stand against factiousness are to be commended; the Lord will reward them greater than their losses.

It is too bad for the workers of that school. It just goes to show how many in the Churches of Christ care more for this vocal-only tradition and ensuring militancy for it than they do about the livelihoods of people who have put in years of service in for them.

 

Do not congratulate yourself above what you deserve. Satan got puffed up with pride more than he deserved, and look what it cost him. Take heed.

Any sensible person without any loyalty to your religious group would not be swayed by your nonsense. Nearly everyone who has posted against your nonsense, if not everyone, would be more convincing.

I meant what I said and exactly what I said. There was no desire to insult you, although I knew that my explanation of
1) my future activities dealing with you on this issue, and
2) why
would be much less than flattering. Had I desired to insult you, I would have posted differently plus posted a lot more. I regret that the truth is less than flattering.

I just indicated that I am not going to spend nearly as much time fooling around with you, and I explained why. Take it at face value.

 

Would someone please do me a favor, and ask DOTF my questions? For some reason, he ignores me.

 

If you really believe what you just said, then there is no reason to sing vocally in your church whatsoever. Cancel the song service all together. The musical instruments are not authorized, and so are the vocal chords. All music must be "in the heart to the Lord." It is not aloud; it is in the heart. That is silent. There must be no noise whatsoever in your church; but complete silence. Everything must be "in your heart," just like Hannah:

1 Samuel 1:12-13 And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the LORD, that Eli marked her mouth. Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard:

God does not authorize you to use your voice.

 

I find it funny that God would allow instruments in Heaven but ban them on Earth.

Actually, I find it ludicrous.

DOTF, I'll give you points for tenacity, but you are defending a goofy doctrine, and doing a poor job of it to boot.